Best Ever Albums

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

Anonymous — Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:04:22 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/03/2013 04:04

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:

this site is so white

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

HigherThanTheSun — Mon, 2 Dec 2013 14:34:58 GMT

Author: HigherThanTheSun

Posted: 12/02/2013 19:34

He means that positive discrimination only exists as a concept because groups of people are treated differently in society in the first place, and it's impossible to assess whether it's a good or bad thing without considering this context.

I think.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

Norman Bates — Mon, 2 Dec 2013 14:18:21 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 12/02/2013 19:18

tekin wrote:

There's no such thing as "positive discrimination in itself". There's only the historical-social phenomenon that's called "positive discrimination". Just a point for Dingerbell, since in comparing "normal" discrimination to positive discrimination, he adopts a strong essentialist point of view which says social act "A" can be abstracted and compared to another abstracted social act, "B". In sociology and social ethical theory, there's no such thing as "out of context" principle. The historical and social background and context of principles, acts or concertized social-theoretical entities is inseparable from the so-called "essence" of that act or principle or entity.

This ^.

Whatever it means.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

Anonymous — Mon, 2 Dec 2013 11:58:06 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/02/2013 16:58

There's no such thing as "positive discrimination in itself". There's only the historical-social phenomenon that's called "positive discrimination". Just a point for Dingerbell, since in comparing "normal" discrimination to positive discrimination, he adopts a strong essentialist point of view which says social act "A" can be abstracted and compared to another abstracted social act, "B". In sociology and social ethical theory, there's no such thing as "out of context" principle. The historical and social background and context of principles, acts or concretized social-theoretical entities is inseparable from the so-called "essence" of that act or principle or entity.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

junodog4 — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 22:28:31 GMT

Author: junodog4

Posted: 12/02/2013 03:28

HigherThanTheSun wrote:

On positive discrimination, I'm not saying I'd support it's clumsy use in the example Dingerbell said but no it's not as bad as plain discrimination because the purpose of it is to redress a problem and to tackle unfairness rather than perpetuate it, big difference.

Well done sir...

Anyone who complains about 'positive discrimination' should reflect upon privilidge, as stated by Jackw. I deal with it all the time in relation to certain views about First Nations people in Canada.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

Jackwc — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 21:02:54 GMT

Author: Jackwc

Posted: 12/02/2013 02:02

Dingerbell wrote:

I'm cool. I don't mind the argument, I'm definitely cool with that. I don't, however, like people who've never met me calling me stupid or accusing me of being racist. It's just think it's horrible behaviour and completely unfair. By the way, I'm sorry if I've offended anyone with my posts.

You just switched between "2 cool 4 forum arguments" to "sniveling sycophant" in the span of two posts.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

SuedeSwede — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 20:02:55 GMT

Author: SuedeSwede

Posted: 12/02/2013 01:02

drakonium wrote:

Huh, I'm sorry to quote your post, but I think you've totally missed the point here, or at least you didn't formulate it well. Nobody ever said that Marquee Moon's music was predictable (it's not), nor that music made by white people with guitars was predictable, because that's hilariously wrong. There's unpredictable music made by white people with guitars, and predictable music made by black people without guitars. What does "unpredictable" even means? It's a totally subjective notion, when used to describe music.

The thing that was supposed to be predictable is the fact that white males with guitar are going to win the tourney. That's all. We stopped talking about the actual music a long time ago now xD

I was talking about predictability in terms of the tournament not the actual music itself.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

HigherThanTheSun — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 19:52:54 GMT

Author: HigherThanTheSun

Posted: 12/02/2013 00:52

BEA is and always has been biased towards a certain type of guitar music and I agree it would be nice to see albums which don't fit into that bracket do well in the tournament, but I don't see why people keep saying that the reason these albums aren't doing well is because most posters here are white, like white people are automatically more likely to be into music made by other white people, it's absurd. That people can or can't relate to hip hop has only a little to do with race, but many other bigger factors besides.

On positive discrimination, I'm not saying I'd support it's clumsy use in the example Dingerbell said but no it's not as bad as plain discrimination because the purpose of it is to redress a problem and to tackle unfairness rather than perpetuate it, big difference.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

Mercury — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 19:39:57 GMT

Author: Mercury

Posted: 12/02/2013 00:39

I like the meter of "Life's A Bitch". I love how he says "cuz ya never KNOW when you're gonna GO."

I adore it.

That was just so we could end this on a somewhat music related note.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

drakonium — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 19:32:46 GMT

Author: drakonium

Posted: 12/02/2013 00:32

Mod wrote:

The original point was that white guitar music is predictable and some unpredictability would be nice

[...]

therefore, Marquee Moon is predictable.

[...]

people enjoy predictable white guitar music more than unpredictable black rap music.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

Dingerbell — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 19:09:05 GMT

Author: Dingerbell

Posted: 12/02/2013 00:09

I'm cool. I don't mind the argument, I'm definitely cool with that. I don't, however, like people who've never met me calling me stupid or accusing me of being racist. It's just think it's horrible behaviour and completely unfair. By the way, I'm sorry if I've offended anyone with my posts.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

SuedeSwede — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 19:00:53 GMT

Author: SuedeSwede

Posted: 12/02/2013 00:00

Here we go again. Neither of you have any arguments in tact anymore and your post just wasn't needed Dingerbell. Don't want to get involved in this but it'd be helpful for everyone if you could both just pipe down or take this elsewhere, because it can no longer go anywhere other than a petty cat fight in which both of you make assumptions about each other's physical and mental wellbeing ended by nothing more than a cyclical argument.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

Dingerbell — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:53:47 GMT

Author: Dingerbell

Posted: 12/01/2013 23:53

Yeah, don't bother reading the posts, it's really not interesting. Most of it is Lethal just abusing me just because I disagree with him and aren't up to his mighty standards of intellect. I think he's under the impression that I actually give a damn about this, when I'm just using it as an excuse to kill some time; it certainly is fun picking out some fallacies.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

Anonymous — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:53:00 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/01/2013 23:53

sp4cetiger wrote:

I hope lethal doesn't get too frustrated with us cause his perspective is badly needed here.

Eh, there's been way too much of my perspective. I made a comment (which has subsequently been proven to have been misguided) about the predictability of the tournament, what with it being dominated by "white men with guitars" (again, I could've been subtler), and about how, whilst there is no discernible difference in quality with a lot of the albums left, you can bet that the ones that go through to the last 16 are going to be albums by those dread "white men with guitars". Somebody thought I was saying "white men with guitars" shouldn't win the tournament, which I felt was twisting my words somewhat, and we had an undignified argument.

End of the day, unpredictability is fun. That said, people here have fantastic taste and I'm sure we'll vote for a deserving winner. Hopefully something that isn't some variation on rock music makes it to the quarter-finals, but if not c'est la vie.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

SuedeSwede — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:46:46 GMT

Author: SuedeSwede

Posted: 12/01/2013 23:46

meccalecca wrote:

Well duh. What are people really arguing? I lost track. Was it about affirmative action? or this tournament would be more enjoyable if black albums won? or whether or not their own egos are too large to fit into this forum?

I just saw you bullshitting about stop and frisk, and felt that had to be cleared up

To be fair, both arguments have elongated to the point of picking at each other's posts. The original point was that white guitar music is predictable and some unpredictability would be nice, which then turned into NYC politics chat.

In all honesty I agree on both parts that tournaments should be less predictable, however, it is plain obvious that white guitar music is going to be dominant on a forum composed of primarily white Western males, so when an album such as Illmatic, which pushes the boundaries of our main demographic, is against an album such as Marquee Moon, which keeps in the boundaries, one should expect the result to be to the advantage of the second album. But now the argument has a loop - therefore, Marquee Moon is predictable.

And sadly there is nothing we can do about the fact that people enjoy predictable white guitar music more than unpredictable black rap music. Sorry.

EDIT: Anybody willing to pick at my post, feel free. All I'm trying to do is straighten out loose ends here and then we can all forget about all these racial slurs and get on like a house on fire.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

Anonymous — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:45:12 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/01/2013 23:45

How did this turn into a race war? Whatever, I don't have time for a political argument, I just love Illmatic. I didn't read enough to see who I agree with, but I hope lethal doesn't get too frustrated with us cause his perspective is badly needed here.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

meccalecca — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:38:56 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 12/01/2013 23:38

Jackwc wrote:

Well duh, no one was really arguing that.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

Anonymous — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:37:35 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/01/2013 23:37

Dingerbell wrote:

What are politicians going to do to sort out discrimination? Jack-shit. It's been a problem for years, and little has been done. That's why I don't take an interest in politics, they're weak and always biased towards the popular opinion. How does not having an interest mean not having an interest in ethics? They're completely separate, otherwise I'll be taught about politics in RS. And why the fuck am I an uneducated fool? It seems that you're trying to boost your argument by attacking me rather than my argument, which is just really weak and disappointing.

Positive discrimination is a legal term. Positive discrimination is decided upon by politicians. You can't claim to pay no attention to politics and then attack positive discrimination. Surely you understand this?

And I attacked you because you totally (perhaps deliberately) misunderstood my point and implied I was saying something that I quite clearly wasn't, which is a fucking shitty thing to do. At least have the fucking wherewithal to understand what I'm arguing before you come charging in like a bull in a china shop and twisting my words like a fucking gutter journalist.

Dingerbell wrote:

Well, I do understand. I have studied women's rights in American and Britain, as well as black civil rights, for my A-level history coursework. I definitely understand the issues of discrimination against minorities for jobs. I obviously are certainly unhappy with discrimination, both positive and regular, and both shouldn't happen. Not to say that one is worse than the other, I completely disagree.

One is worse than the other. One has occurred for thousands of years and continues to do so to this day, the other was brought in to even up the playing field. As I said, it isn't perfect. But it's better than allowing what was happening to continue unregulated. And bruh, A-level coursework isn't serious study, it's a series of hoops they want you to jump through. Go to university and get back to me.

Dingerbell wrote:

Again, man, stop being a bitch and stop putting in snide remarks. It doesn't make your argument look more impressive.

I stand by what I said. Assuming that anybody who said they voted based on race did so seriously is really fucking dumb.

Dingerbell wrote:

Ha, classic straw man. Stop being so absurd. I never suggested the fact that music made by black people was unpopular or unknown, rather that it is less popular than music made by white people.

And I never fucking said that music made by white people wasn't more popular than music made by black people. In fact, I stated that with this site's demographic these results were predictable. You misinterpreted my point, either willfully or stupidly, and are now backing up my point, which was that the predictability of these results is a little depressing. Unpredictability is fun. Next time, try actually reading what is said (and, if needs be, going through it in your head a few times until it all makes sense) before pig-headedly barging into a thread and accusing others of saying shit they didn't.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

Jackwc — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:31:07 GMT

Author: Jackwc

Posted: 12/01/2013 23:31

meccalecca wrote:

and yet the results of this tournament have nothing to do with racism

Well duh, no one was really arguing that.

Re: BDAT Rd. 2 - Illmatic vs. Marquee Moon (CLOSED)

meccalecca — Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:25:49 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 12/01/2013 23:25

Jackwc wrote:

Yeah, not all of its victims are black, but we know exactly what kind - or, should I say, what colour - of people this procedure was made to target. And hey, I didn't know about any ruling, but officers were being told to do this at the risk of losing their jobs if they did not comply. That sort of practice should be antediluvian and it is ABHORRENT how recent it really is.

Yeah, i'm not saying it's not terrible. I've been against it since day one. I live in a predominantly black neighborhood and there's cops in my subway station every few days. I always walk right past them, but then they stop a random black person. it's certainly racist. there's racism everywhere, going in all sorts of directions.

and yet the results of this tournament have nothing to do with racism