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Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

drakonium — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 16:29:01 GMT

Author: drakonium

Posted: 12/05/2013 21:29

tekin wrote:

The fact that you take infinite to only mean mathematical infinite despite the fact that what we're talking about is the real world is just stupid 'cause mathematical infinite is just a theoretical entity in set theory and nothing more. You can never achieve infinity in real world apart from the case of continuum which in turn can be talked of as infinite by just a mental act of division. So there's no infinity and there cannot be. Why talk about sth that there isn't and cannot be. So always one must assume that when people are talking about infinite what they mean is innumerable. Everyday talk ---> Infinite=Innumerable. The act of counting and therefore the human factor is implicit in the word "innumerable", making it a functional yet blur notion to be used by humans when talking about human stuff.

Oh Lord, this, so much. It means shit to say there is a "finite" amount of music we can create, obviously there is. But maybe that number is like 10^fuckknows and it changes absolutely nothing for us, humans. I'm not even sure God has listened to it all.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

Anonymous — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 15:21:55 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/05/2013 20:21

paladisiac wrote:

There are not an unlimited amount of instruments. If you stop time right now, you could count how many instruments there are or ever have been. It would take a long time, but it can be done. Musical instruments on this planeet were created since humans first existed and until they stop existing. That's finite. The note scale is finiite -- it only goes down or up so far until it's imperceptable. Yes, the combination of all elements that make music is a huge number, but a huge, finite number nonetheless.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

Anonymous — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 15:07:49 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/05/2013 20:07

paladisiac wrote:

Yes, at any one point in time there is a finite number of instruments (though I maintain you can make an infinite number of sounds with them, especially if the universe is truly infinite considering how an instrument will sound different at any location in the universe), but Behrus' question only has any real meaning if we consider the potential for music in the future. Now, we have to consider the fact that the human race will eventually die out, but that's sort of beside the point. The point is that, no matter how long humanity were to last, we could never, under any circumstances whatsoever, reach a point where there would be no new music or sounds to be made. I don't mean we won't because there are too many to be exhausted, I mean there is literally no way it could happen even under the most ideal circumstances for doing so.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

paladisiac — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 14:53:50 GMT

Author: paladisiac

Posted: 12/05/2013 19:53

Put another way:

Albert Einstein wrote:

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

paladisiac — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 14:47:19 GMT

Author: paladisiac

Posted: 12/05/2013 19:47

Behrus58 wrote:

Thanks for all of your comments.

How many instruments do we have?
Some of the answers were Unlimited.But why ?! lethalnezzle mentioned that we can make instruments out of anything.Ok let's discuss this "anything".is this "anything" unlimited ? no. Maybe making an instrument from a liquid , special gas , a kind of stone , a special insect ... and ???

Anyway.Continuing this discussion is kinda useless.i just wanted to ask it here and have a discussion about it.As revolver said this Q is somehow strange to ask.but really nice opinions. Thanks a lot

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

Anonymous — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 14:20:09 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/05/2013 19:20

I would say so.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

Behrus58 — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 14:13:49 GMT

Author: Behrus58

Posted: 12/05/2013 19:13

Is Composing music these days as easy as composing music in the 60's ?

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

Anonymous — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 14:03:19 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/05/2013 19:03

paladisiac wrote:

i'm going to agree with the original post's assertion of limited notes, instruments, etc. Contrary to other opinions, there are a FINITE amount of notes, instruments, etc. Since you are multiplying a FINITE number of amounts across a FINITE amount of instruments, along with other finite properties like vocal qualities and ranges, and you will have a finite amount of permutations.

No. Read my post that directly proceeded yours.

Also, claiming a finite number of instruments would be damn hard to back up. For starters, one single type of instrument could theoretically constitute any number of instruments. For example, no two violins sound the same, and consequently every single violin could be counted as a unique instrument. So in that sense, there are an unlimited number of instruments that could fall under the violin umbrella alone.

Is that too literal for you? Well then where do we draw the line? How many different types of guitars are there? How many pedals are there to alter the sounds you make with them (which, by the way, is very likely to carry us outside the bounds of the "12 tone" paradigm)? For crying out loud, how many different ways are there to play a middle C on the exact same violin (I'm a violinist, if that wasn't clear)?

And I haven't even broached the issue of dynamics, which also lie on a continuum, much like pitch, tone quality, and note length (and let's not ignore things like vibrato, crescendos, and accelerandos that will alter pitch, dynamic, and tempo in continuous fashion).

Furthermore, as lethal and others have pointed out, we have electronics that can generate virtually any conceivable sound. Now, to be fair, any one piece of electronic equipment has technical limitations that will limit it to an apparently infinite but not quite really infinite number of sounds, but then we have further developments in technology (which will never stop) to consider.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

Behrus58 — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 13:47:21 GMT

Author: Behrus58

Posted: 12/05/2013 18:47

Thanks for all of your comments.

How many instruments do we have?
Some of the answers were Unlimited.But why ?! lethalnezzle mentioned that we can make instruments out of anything.Ok let's discuss this "anything".is this "anything" unlimited ? no. Maybe making an instrument from a liquid , special gas , a kind of stone , a special insect ... and ???

Anyway.Continuing this discussion is kinda useless.i just wanted to ask it here and have a discussion about it.As revolver said this Q is somehow strange to ask.but really nice opinions. Thanks a lot

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

revolver94 — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 13:34:01 GMT

Author: revolver94

Posted: 12/05/2013 18:34

this question is, like, so irrelevant

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

Anonymous — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 12:35:01 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/05/2013 17:35

meccalecca wrote:

so was I

You're our wise old grandpa; you don't have the right to silliness.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

Defago — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 12:23:35 GMT

Author: Defago

Posted: 12/05/2013 17:23

It's papa.

Music is infinite, in theory, but there's only a finite amount of music we can distinguish.

There's a limited amount of frequencies we can perceive, so there are finite "notes", ranging from the gravest to the most acute. The "natural" notes, the chromatic scale, has 12 notes in it. However, we could conceivably use half notes, such as the note between C and C#. We could also use fourth, eight, sixteenth, etc, points between notes, to achieve a much greater "range" of notes. However, there is a point in which C and one-sixty-fourth-above-C become undistinguishable. So we have an infinite amount of notes, but we can only perceive a finite amount.

We also have an extreme amount of different rhythms, ranging from four equal beats per compass to whatever you'd like to fit in. However, there's a point in which 123 extremely rapid beats is undistinguishable from 121 extremely rapid beats and one slightly slower. So once again, we have an infinite amount of beats, but there's a point in which we can't tell between very similar ones, so we can only perceive a finite amount.

There's also a huge variety of sounds - rocks, cars, air, silences, etc. Still, there's only a certain amount of sounds our ear can differentiate. THere's a point in which a 5cm rock sounds the same to us as a 5.1cm rock, so the amount of possible sounds is infinite, but we can only differentiate a finite amount of them.

Same with the amount of tracks on a song. You can make a song with one violin, which would be different from one with two violins playing the same melody. Youc ould probably tell if they added a third violin. COuld you tell between a song with ten million violins and ten million violins and one, though?

In the end, yeah, objectively there's an infinite amount of possible songs, but there's a limit to what our ears can differentiate. So there's a finite amount of music we can differentiate from each other, even if it is very slightly different.

For all practical means, there's no possible way you'd listen to all possible creatable differentiable music, even if you spent every waking moment listening to music. It's an enormous amount of possible combinations - a number close to infinite to the power of the number of variables considered (notes, instruments, beat, tempo, feel, atmosphere, amount of tracks, amounts of reverb, distortion on the guitar, how much the bass dial is turned on the microphone). Essentially, a number close to infinite to the power of a number close to infinite.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

meccalecca — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 12:12:16 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 12/05/2013 17:12

tekin wrote:

Duh! I was just being silly.

so was I

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

Anonymous — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 11:49:55 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/05/2013 16:49

meccalecca wrote:

I was speaking figuratively, but I'll read whatever you write however I wanna hear it in my head.

Duh! I was just being silly.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

meccalecca — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 11:46:02 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 12/05/2013 16:46

tekin wrote:

Actually I say Patates but whatever.

I was speaking figuratively, but I'll read whatever you write however I wanna hear it in my head.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

Anonymous — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 11:43:57 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/05/2013 16:43

meccalecca wrote:

And languages also transform with ever-changing dialects. You say potato, I say pototo.

Actually I say Patates but whatever.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

meccalecca — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 11:36:26 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 12/05/2013 16:36

tekin wrote:

Mathematically speaking they're not infinite and never will be but the amount of sentences that can be formed in English language is sth around 10^570 which isn't infinite as well but a source that can never be exhausted.

And languages also transform with ever-changing dialects. You say potato, I say pototo.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

Anonymous — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 10:29:38 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/05/2013 15:29

Hayden wrote:

I wouldn't say we have limited words 🤔 Words are made all the time.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

paladisiac — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 10:27:44 GMT

Author: paladisiac

Posted: 12/05/2013 15:27

i'm going to agree with the original post's assertion of limited notes, instruments, etc. Contrary to other opinions, there are a FINITE amount of notes, instruments, etc. Since you are multiplying a FINITE number of amounts across a FINITE amount of instruments, along with other finite properties like vocal qualities and ranges, and you will have a finite amount of permutations.

That's just math. And in that math, yes, all music will (and does) sound like music that came before it. Anyone that says otherwise is misleading themselves. Now, how much that new music sounds like music from the past? Well that similarity percentage range can vary (and i would argue vary more the further you stray from pop music).

Albums already can/do sound like ripoffs. Of course, if an album sounds like a ripoff and to what degree will also vary based on the audience -- the subjective point of view of the person listening. I might say modest mouse's "we were dead before the ship even sank" sounds like it was born of the same template as "good news for people who love bad news". It might be very apparent to me and not to someone else -- the difference being a range of me over-interpreting similarities and/or someone else underinterpreting similarities.

Re: How is music so "Unlimited" ?

Anonymous — Thu, 5 Dec 2013 10:12:56 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 12/05/2013 15:12

Spoiler alert: Even if we limit ourselves to the 12 traditional tones (ignoring octaves), the number of ways we can combine them is decidedly NOT finite. This depends partly on the fact that there is no restriction on the number of these tones that can be strung together, but more importantly the lengths of each tone run along a continuum and are not discrete-valued, and are thus infinite. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee that no two notes played in all of history have had the exact same duration.