I wasn't attempting to get personal in any way, and I believe you're referring to the question, "Is that because (pop-rock)'s your favourite genre?". That wasn't intended as a snide remark or an insult, but rather as an example of the dangers of trying to decide what is "great" based on anything other than personal opinion. My point is that it's impossible, because each person's experiences guide their thoughts and opinions on what is important historically, culturally and individually. I wasn't attempting to accuse you of not being open to other forms of music, and I know from your chart that you are. I was just pointing out the sheer ridiculousness of trying to decide "greatness" based on supposedly objective criteria that simply cannot actually be measured objectively. In doing so, we run the risk of being accused of being "closed-minded", which is what I was trying to point out (see my continued use of the phrase, "the dangers of..."). I did not mean anything I said as a personal attack on you, though I can see why you think I did and I apologise if I've offended you. I was merely pointing out the problem with the school of thought which says that the "greatness" of a piece of music can be decided by anything other than the individual's opinion. It can't.
Well, I still disagree with you, but I appreciate your apology. I do want to point out that I never once used the word "objective" and that was for good reason. I do believe that every judgement of music is subjective, but judging subjectively does not exclude the use of external factors in making a judgement. The argument is not philosophical, it's semantic. We disagree about what "greatness" is -- we should probably leave it at that.
Perhaps I should just let the dog lie, but I want to add in one little clarification. I used to argue "objectivity" vs. "subjectivity", but I realized a while ago that what I was arguing wasn't that but rather "enjoyability" vs. "greatness". Now, nezzle, you've argued that they should be viewed as the same, and that's certainly a valid stance, but I think there is a slight difference, though it has nothing to do with critical acclaim or sales or popularity. Instead, I define "enjoyability" by the criterion "How much do I enjoy this band/album/song?" whereas I define "greatness" as "How much am I impressed by this band/album/song?"
For example, I've for a long time championed DSOTM as the greatest album I've ever heard (though I know you would disagree, nezzle), and this is because the album feels like a flawless piece of music to me. I enjoy other albums more, but no album is as great of an accomplishment as that one, in my opinion.
I think what sp4cetiger is getting at is that people disagree on what "greatness" is. For that reason, though, I think the whole issue of "greatness" should not be addressed as though it were universal, as it has been in this thread.
Okay, I'm gonna stop before I open a BEA wormhole.
Perhaps I should just let the dog lie, but I want to add in one little clarification. I used to argue "objectivity" vs. "subjectivity", but I realized a while ago that what I was arguing wasn't that but rather "enjoyability" vs. "greatness". Now, nezzle, you've argued that they should be viewed as the same, and that's certainly a valid stance, but I think there is a slight difference, though it has nothing to do with critical acclaim or sales or popularity. Instead, I define "enjoyability" by the criterion "How much do I enjoy this band/album/song?" whereas I define "greatness" as "How much am I impressed by this band/album/song?"
For example, I've for a long time championed DSOTM as the greatest album I've ever heard (though I know you would disagree, nezzle), and this is because the album feels like a flawless piece of music to me. I enjoy other albums more, but no album is as great of an accomplishment as that one, in my opinion.
I think what sp4cetiger is getting at is that people disagree on what "greatness" is. For that reason, though, I think the whole issue of "greatness" should not be addressed as though it were universal, as it has been in this thread.
Okay, I'm gonna stop before I open a BEA wormhole.
Yeah, I understand that. For example, I think Eminem's one of the greatest rappers ever in terms of technical ability, yet for me he didn't make any of the greatest hip-hop albums ever. Because I think the greatness of a song or album is synonymous with enjoyment. I can accept that an album technically is impressive, but for me that doesn't equal greatness, regardless of whether I can appreciate the talent behind it. Although I do want to stress that I do understand that somebody can be a great musician without being a musician whose work I enjoy. I dunno, it's semantics, but when it comes to what constitutes a great song or a great album, it really does boil down to how much an individual enjoys it. But whatever, it's semantics. I do find it an interesting topic to talk about, if one that's been discussed to death on BEA, but you're probably right; little good can come of its prolonged discussion.
I suppose your wording could have been gentler, but I don't think you should have to apologize for posting your opinion. We can quibble all we want about what songs deserve to be on that list, but if you think those are the only songs that qualify, that's fine. Others are just as free to disagree.
Uh, frankly, I agree that any song should be able to be looked at as the greatest. I shouldn't've limited it to that, talked to a buddy of mine last night frankly and they made a great case for several songs that weren't on that list (Walk This Way, Let's Dance, Eleanor Rigby, and several others). I was being dumb and impulsive and my real opinion is just that if you can make a case for it, then it should be considered. And therefore, any song really should be considered.
lethalnezzle wrote:
OK, for my own sanity I'm only going to say this once. There is no difference between "greatest", "best" and "favourite". My favourite song of all-time is 'International Player's Anthem' by UGK & Outkast. It is subsequently also the "greatest" and the "best" song of all-time. Album sales, popular opinion, radio play, etc., have no bearing whatsover on its quality or "greatness".
But yeah, no worries. I didn't see anything wrong with the wording of what you were saying, I just fundamentally disagree with the idea that "greatness" can be calculated by anything other than an individual's perception of what is "great". If I perceive a song to be the greatest ever, then it is, if only to me, because the idea of greatness, within popular music at any rate, is entirely subjective. It is in the eye (or ear, as it is in this case) of the beholder. No objective measurement can determine greatness, because if I don't like a song then, to me at least, it's not great. Like 'Stairway To Heaven'. It doesn't matter how many people love it, or how many professional critics sing its praises, or how often it gets listened to on Spotify, because I don't enjoy it. I don't think it's a great song, therefore it isn't. You may think it's a great song, therefore it is. That's all there is to it.
I get exactly what you mean by all of that. For greatness, I think there is a personal greatness and an overall greatness. That's the way I perceive it. For me, the greatest songs ever include Love Will Tear Us Apart, 1979, Ms Jackson, lots of songs that several people wouldn't even know. I was looking perhaps more for the most famous and less for the "greatest", and as you've pointed out, great is a very broad and hard to interpret word.
Also I'd like to apologize for my part in getting this thread pretty off topic. But I think this thread has proven one thing. For as much arguing as there is over this topic, no one's gotten mean. No one's name calling, no one's accusing, none of that. That's pretty incredible, really. Most websites, this would've spiraled totally out of control. But it hasn't. OK it has a little, but not in a mean way. And I really do think that's incredible. Glad to have found such a great online community. _________________
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