ADP #6 In Utero by Nirvana

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CA Dreamin



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  • #21
  • Posted: 03/24/2017 20:17
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Gowi wrote:
Nirvana's weakest album if you ask me, but it has a lot of good ideas and its in no way bad. But that's just my taste, I guess. Nirvana was at their best when they were writing wailing noise-punk.

I like Nirvana in their adolescent working class angst full of rage and frustration; fast, sloppy, and fun.

Bleach is a noise rock record at its heart (which is why it rules, by the way). My favorite songs on Nevermind and In Utero are the ones that have that character, that energy, and that aggression. I do think In Utero is pretty dull...I listen to Nirvana for sloppy anarchic guitar lines and rigid horned aggression...songs that have actual BITE and are not detached from that energy that made early Nirvana so utterly fantastic.


That's great if you prefer the raw, sloppy noise-rock of Bleach and Incesticide, but we're not here to argue opinions. The truth is Nirvana was more than that. And while we hear traces of that energy on Nevermind and In Utero, we also hear some polished/conventional songs on Bleach and Incestide that foreshadowed what was to come (Blew, About a Girl, Love Buzz, Dive).

So why did Nirvana take the change in direction from Bleach to Nevermind? Is it possible they were bored with that sound and scene? Were they simply growing as musicians and following their artistic instincts? I would say yes to those questions, and I think Nirvana also wanted to expand their audience (which they inadvertently over-succeeded).
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CA Dreamin



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  • #22
  • Posted: 03/25/2017 02:02
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sethmadsen wrote:
Ok first off - Kurt Cobain HATED it when people tried to interpret his songs. It was like, look, I make the lyrics up on the spot and it doesn't even matter... it's just words. But as a listener listens, they often want meanings. So I suppose that's what is happening here. And it's fun... I feel like he was almost like an impressionist painter with his lyrics - only "painting" the light reflections, not the details. In another way too, it's like this form of poetry of one liners that sometimes seem it doesn't match at all. I think my favorite lyric is something I feel this pseudo vegetarian friend of mine has because she only eats fish for meat: "It's ok to eat fish cause they don't have any feelings" - idk... it is this simple lyric yet on a lot of levels is interesting: the pseudo vegetarian, that argument that only humans matter that kind of started with rationalism. It's a simple lyric yet has some kind of deep/intriguing discussion possibilities.


I'm not sure how much I buy this. On In Utero, I think the lyrics of Dumb are pretty clear. Milk It, not so much. I don't know what he's talking about in that song. In fact, I always thought the line was 'Don't staaaaaaaaaay.' But when reading up on In Utero to prepare this ADP, I found out the line is actually 'Doll steeeeeeeeeeak.' Doll steak? Hmm. I guess since kids pretend dolls are alive, they can 'kill them and make them into steak.'
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CA Dreamin



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  • #23
  • Posted: 03/25/2017 03:15
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sethmadsen wrote:
On Serve the Servants, why did Kurt jump between different topics? Was it simply a way of announcing how he's a different person from the Nevermind sessions, or are the topics somehow connected?

I don't think Kurt ever wrote really coherent flowing lyrics. I don't think there's much to gleem from it other than he talked about two topics in the same song. Nothing new in my opinion.


As we've concluded, Serve the Servants can actually be analyzed as addressing three topics - frustration with record label, frustration with the press, and his father. And again the chorus line 'That legendary divorce is such a bore' brings the three themes together. Such an incredible song.

sethmadsen wrote:
Does All Apologies foreshadow his suicide? Personally I'm not sure, due to the long time between the song's writing and his suicide. But if you think certainly yes or no, please explain.

I think it talks more about a terrible relationship he had with Courtney (which is funny cause I think he dedicated this song to her on a live recording). But that's just my opinion. I don't think this is a suicide apology or whatever.

I don't know very much about their marriage other than it had problems. But isn't that every marriage? They stayed married for two years until he killed himself. The relationship couldn't have been all terrible. There had to be something there. However, since you said he dedicated the song to Courtney, perhaps the song was an apology for not being a better husband. However, I think the song title speaks for itself - All Apologies. He was apologizing for several things. Ex. "What else could I say? Everyone is gay." Gay being a synonym for happy, thus he was apologizing for being unable to find happiness while he saw happiness in everyone around him. I think that could be interpreted as a foreshadow of suicide given how comfortable the music of song is, as opposed to how wild and energetic other tracks on In Utero are. But he didn't make a direct suicide reference in the song, which was part of his lyrical style of ambiguity. So, at most I'd say All Apologies vaguely implies suicide, but so do other Nirvana tracks depending on interpretation. Doesn't mean they foreshadow it.

sethmadsen wrote:
Nobody expected the singles of Nevermind to become the radio sensations they did because by pre-1991 standards, they weren't radio-friendly...too dark, too distorted, too heavy, too angry, too depressing, etc. But as it turned out, those songs, along with several other 1991 hits, helped change what radio-friendliness meant. With that in mind, was In Utero a mainstream or anti-mainstream album?

This is a difficult question because mainstream is a pretty loose term. In one sense it is absolutely mainstream - it sold millions of copies. In another sense, it was anti-corporate rock and corporate was mainstream, so in that sense Nirvana was always the punk rock attitude and was always anti-establishment, etc.

What I meant was in early '93, grunge was still new to the mainstream. Two years earlier, it was mostly a Seattle thing. It's possible from that perspective to think that grunge could have only been be a short-lived fad on the mainstream level. We know that turned out to be wrong. I was suggesting that if Kurt Cobain was uncomfortable with grunge going mainstream, he understood that he was responsible for it. So In Utero could have been an opportunity to take grunge back out of the mainstream by purposely making it as radio-unfriendly as possible. Of course they didn't, at least not for every song.

sethmadsen wrote:
Unlike Nevermind, where in hindsight nearly every track could have been a radio single, In Utero greatly wavered between the conventional and the unconventional, such as tracks 2, 4, 8, 10, and 11. But why are these songs juxtaposed to radio-friendly songs like Heart-Shaped Box, Dumb, and All Apologies?

Eh - I don't think nearly every track on Nevermind could be a single. But I get what you are getting at. And to answer the question, I think I remember seeing an interview where Nirvana wanted to get back to their harsher sound, what they started with Bleach. They didn't like the overall polished sound of Nevermind.

They liked it enough to repeat it on some In Utero tracks.

sethmadsen wrote:
Furthermore, In Utero constantly jumping around in mood, theme, and song structure can be a valid criticism - it's inconsistent. But perhaps that's the beauty of it because it reflected the personality/mindset of its artist? As an album, how do you feel about it?

I already stated I liked the album. But to why it is "inconsistent" I think largely had to do with drug abuse and the difficulty Nirvana was having at the time with mental health/etc. I think they even had a shrink come to the studio (something I heard and haven't verified). But kind of like the white album, I like the differing things going on... and really for me it isn't that one song sounds like this and one song sounds like that - I think it had more to do with the differing production styles of Albini and Litt.

A shrink at the recording studio? Wow, that's pretty messed up. Tell us more about the difference between Albini and Litt. On a sidenote, when I PMed you saying I was changing which album I was gonna do last-minute, it came down to In Utero or The White Album. The White Album nearly became ADP #6 and here you are mentioning it, haha.
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RoundTheBend
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  • #24
  • Posted: 03/26/2017 06:27
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Here's a clip from what I was talking about his own lyrics and interpretations of them - maybe my use of the word hate was too harsh. Also some other interesting clips and then the full interview below.

As for your interpretations, I wasn't saying they were wrong and I think I agree with you about In Utero being an effort to tell people, look, we aren't Guns and Roses and I'm probably wrong, but I don't think Nirvana would have self identified as Grunge - they likely would have self identified as a punk rock band. I don't think they were trying to make the ideal grunge record, I think they were trying to get back to their punk rock roots.


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You mentioned a polish tone on a few songs with In Utero - you can thank Litt for this. I can't remember where it was I read/heard it, but Kurt wasn't crazy about Albini's work on some of the singles (vocal mix especially), so Litt was brought in. The anniversary edition has both versions.

Looks like the album version has Litt doing Heart-Shaped Box, All Apologies instead of Albini.

Looks like he also did Pennyroyal Tea, but Albini's version made the cut.

You can hear Albini's version of Heart Shaped Box and All Apologies here (well and really all the versions to compare):

https://open.spotify.com/album/6ohX7moZZnF1FwYrli1OJ6
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



Location: Ground Control
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  • #25
  • Posted: 03/26/2017 06:35
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Oh - does anyone know if the 2013 mix on the record was actually Butch Vig's interpretation of the album?

EDIT: Looks like Nirvana's website says this:
The In Utero 20th anniversary 2-CD Deluxe Edition features the original album newly remastered, the complete B-sides, alternate mixes, demos and new stereo mixes created by Steve Albini who revisited the album’s original multi-tracks for a new album listening experience.
http://www.nirvana.com/album/in-utero-2...y-edition/
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CA Dreamin



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  • #26
  • Posted: 03/26/2017 23:25
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^^^^Thank you seth for those links, very insightful.

sethmadsen wrote:
As for your interpretations, I wasn't saying they were wrong and I think I agree with you about In Utero being an effort to tell people, look, we aren't Guns and Roses and I'm probably wrong, but I don't think Nirvana would have self identified as Grunge - they likely would have self identified as a punk rock band. I don't think they were trying to make the ideal grunge record, I think they were trying to get back to their punk rock roots.

I can see Kurt saying that. Personally I don't think of 'grunge' as a subgenre, so I don't think there's a quintessential album that defines it. I think of grunge more as a movement with multiple genre influences. Nirvana and Soundgarden are both grunge, but stylistically pretty different. One's closer to a punk band while the other's closer to a heavy metal band. Then you have Pearl Jam and STP, both grunge bands influenced by classic rock (at least for STP's first two albums before they changed their style).

sethmadsen wrote:
You mentioned a polish tone on a few songs with In Utero - you can thank Litt for this. I can't remember where it was I read/heard it, but Kurt wasn't crazy about Albini's work on some of the singles (vocal mix especially), so Litt was brought in. The anniversary edition has both versions.

Looks like the album version has Litt doing Heart-Shaped Box, All Apologies instead of Albini.

Looks like he also did Pennyroyal Tea, but Albini's version made the cut.

In the 40-minute interview video you posted, at the 1:30 mark, the interviewer and Kurt talk about his dissatisfaction of the vocals on Albini's original recordings of All Apologies and Heart-Shaped Box, and Scott Litt was recruited to fix them. Here are Albini's originals:

Link


Link

Not a huge difference.

And here's the Scott Litt version of Pennyroyal Tea:

Link
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