Best Pop Albums

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Facetious



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  • #21
  • Posted: 02/22/2018 20:07
  • Post subject: Re: Greatest Pop Albums of All Time
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AfterHours wrote:
8.5/10
The River - Bruce Springsteen (1980)


I continue to be mystified by the high rating, even after reading your post about it. Can you provide specific examples of the nuances you feel are present in the faster-paced songs? My impression was that the album is a solid pop/rock album (7 or low 7.5) with a few slower songs adding some depth, two in particular standing out (The River and Drive All Night). Very moving, but overall a medium or high 7.5. I'm confused by how the "wall of sound" is so massively significant; it's just a common production trick that merely serves to heighten the anthemic feel of the songs. It was present on Born to Run as well, for a similar purpose although not exactly the same (the songs on The River are intentionally more humble and down-to-earth, adding to the populism). In fact, Born to Run is almost as good as The River probably.

Quote:
8/10
Jagged Little Pill - Alanis Morissette (1995)


It's a bridge between serious singer/songwriter stuff and angsty teen pop, which is a very cool idea but it doesn't necessarily mean it transcends any of the limitations of either genre. Ultimately I don't really see what makes it more than a 7 (or a low 7.5 if you're being slightly generous), which is still very high considering it's a corporate teen pop album. It's amazing how much generic stuff you and/or Scaruffi rate high while sometimes ignoring more critically acclaimed stuff (such as the Beatles Razz )

Quote:
8/10
Purple Rain - Prince (1984)


I'd put it as a high 7.5 myself but I can totally see this. Very surprised by the high rating but also pleased.

Quote:
7.5/10
Rocket to Russia - Ramones (1977)


Classic. Great to see it back. Even if it's a pity it has to be below Jagged Little Pill Razz
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AfterHours



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  • #22
  • Posted: 02/22/2018 20:29
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@Facetious

Re: The River ... Ill see if I can find a little more time soon to provide more details.

Re: Jagged Little Pill

AfterHours wrote:
I was kind of shocked to discover last night that Alanis Morrissette's Jagged Little Pill (now equally reviled and beloved the world over; when I was growing up it could do no wrong) is probably some kind of female singer-songwriter masterpiece. It's much more compelling than I remember, with somewhat incongruous, bouncy and flippant arrangements juxtaposing Morrisette's relentlessly modulating, off-balanced vocals that run the gamut of teenage-hood, when life and its problems can seem like an unfair rollercoaster. Where its issues can seem much more dramatic and where hormones and volatile, regretful, embarassing reactions are the norm. When one is growing into their body and adulthood a little too fast for comfort and hasn't acclimated to their feelings and how to temper them with tact. Morrissette's vocals are expressions of all of those feelings, of a teenage girl that has a complete voice but doesn't know how to artfully handle and resolve things yet. Who is so emotionally strewn about what she is going through that, without considering the consequences, she just lets it loose with a spirited aplomb (represented in the arrangements) with all the embarassingly naive explosion of hormones that teenagers often do (represented in the vocals).

I used to find the album obviously accomplished but also partially annoying which made me hesitant towards rating it very high, but now I find it to be a pretty amazing document of the above issues that many people go through in one way or another.

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AfterHours



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  • #23
  • Posted: 02/22/2018 20:36
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@Facetious

Re: The Beatles vs whoever...

Try not to get in the trap of comparing them formally. Listen closely and compare them expressively/emotionally (vocally and instrumentally, then song-to-song consistency and impact), and the differential is pretty easy to see between them and higher rated works.

This applies as well when comparing them to other pop (or close) works (DBs, XTC, NMH, Stone Roses, Green, Soft Boys, St Vincent, Arcade Fire, etc) lest you feel I might only be referring to the Hendrix's and Coltrane's of the world.
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Last edited by AfterHours on 02/22/2018 21:30; edited 3 times in total
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AfterHours



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  • #24
  • Posted: 02/22/2018 21:02
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@Facetious

Re: Purple Rain

I was surprised myself but it seems like a masterpiece of absurdly virile and colorful sexuality that becomes powerful akin to how the decadent, theatrical excess of Jim Steinman's productions do (especially the incredible Original Sin). Purple Rain is an overwhelmingly ecstatic, vibrant, orgasmic (literally and figuratively) coalescence of emotions, dichotomies between voice and instrument, of genre-hopping, of liquid persona, of sexual utopia. It is also so completely overtaken by the high quality superficiality of popular 80's productions (Thriller, etc) that it becomes its ultimate purveyor, revelling in it to such an extent that it becomes amazing and powerful, theatrical and psychological -- Prince seems utterly consumed by his theatrical/stage persona perhaps at the expense/loss of self (again, echoing Steinman).

Re: Rocket to Russia

I've been meaning to revisit and re-rate it for quite a while. I was reminded this time at just how ferociously pulsating and loud the guitars are, and this in relation to the (intentionally, satirically) unintelligent vocals, is a pretty disarming and infectiously catchy experience. One finds himself humming idiotic slogans and mottos, which becomes great satire upon their influences (mainly 60s pop groups). It's not just a loving and tongue-in-cheek tribute/satire, but also one that is outlandishly violent/taking them to task (the unrelenting anarchy behind the simple vocals); a figurative middle finger to the stupidity of mainstream culture/the establishment, and showing how easy it is to become famous while doing so.
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AfterHours



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  • #25
  • Posted: 02/23/2018 05:21
  • Post subject: Re: Greatest Pop Albums of All Time
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Facetious wrote:
It's amazing how much generic stuff you and/or Scaruffi rate high while sometimes ignoring more critically acclaimed stuff (such as the Beatles Razz )


I know the statement was a bit tongue in cheek so I didnt take offense, but I do want to emphasize that The Beatles haven't been "ignored". They were among my favorite rock artists several years ago and Ive listened to their albums probably more than many of their fans. They simply haven't been overrated. They have 2 selections among the "greatest pop albums of all time" which is completely accurate to me. I am not here to swindle people into thinking their chords were so outrageous (only mediocre/amateur musicians would actually think this), or their melodies and harmonies were on the order of Mozart (*head nod*), or to claim that their music was such a monumental event of creativity and emotional/conceptual significance the likes of which hasn't exisited since Beethoven/Wagner (only someone unfamiliar with 20th century art and music, and the most creative and extraordinary Rock/Jazz artists of the pre-60s/60s and so on, would think this, imo). And other alike statements. I don't get paid by their label or a magazine or any sources to make ridiculous claims like that. I only get paid by Scaruffi (just kidding Laughing )

For the record, they were undoubtedly the most popular pop/rock artists of the 60s (and probably of all time). They were pretty darn creative for pop artists and deserve to be mentioned among the best pop artists of rock history. They did play a big part in forwarding Pop Art/Art Pop in ways that Zappa (if he wanted to simplify his works) or The Byrds or The Zombies or The Beach Boys (and so forth) probably didnt have the reach or inclination (or George Martin) to do themselves. But I also feel there are superior examples of this genre (plus far more substantial/adventurous music pulled from it) and it doesnt seem to have taken geniuses of such a rare order to have surpassed them in their own/similar formats, whether its their contemporaries or several examples that followed.

They were the mainstream face of various innovations of the 60s and from this, were obviously very influential/inspiring to others. But if one applies to "influence/innovation" something on the order of "singularity/innovation of ideas and the degree of how much their ingenuity/creativity actually changed/advanced the art form itself (not the replication of it, but the actual artistry, the conveyance, how it sounds...)" then they were far less so than their reputation suggests. It is very possible they inspired lines of thinking that helped plant seeds towards significant changes in the art form but they weren't the major change themselves, which required substantially more imagination/adventurousness/fearlessness (Ex: Sgt Pepper was an influence upon Pink Floyd's Piper, but Piper is the far more startling and adventurous work).
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Facetious



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  • #26
  • Posted: 02/26/2018 12:30
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AfterHours wrote:
@Facetious

Re: The Beatles vs whoever...

Try not to get in the trap of comparing them formally. Listen closely and compare them expressively/emotionally (vocally and instrumentally, then song-to-song consistency and impact), and the differential is pretty easy to see between them and higher rated works.

This applies as well when comparing them to other pop (or close) works (DBs, XTC, NMH, Stone Roses, Green, Soft Boys, St Vincent, Arcade Fire, etc) lest you feel I might only be referring to the Hendrix's and Coltrane's of the world.


My "tongue-in-cheek" comment mostly applied to the likes of Rubber Soul, Revolver, MMT, and the self-titled (which I'd say should probably be at least 6.5, 7, 6.5/7, and 6.5/7 on your scale, respectively). I also find his ratings of their pre-Rubber Soul work overly harsh; apparently Scaruffi believes Please Please Me, With The Beatles, Beatles for Sale (!!), and Help (!!!!) are among the worst albums ever. It's actually pretty hard to find artists who received that amount of 3/10's, or even one 3/10. Even comparing the rest of the ratings to what other related artists received, such as the Byrds, the Kinks and the Rolling Stones, reveals his clear bias against them, even if he's right that they're quite overrated.

Anyway, I'm not sure what a "formal" comparison means here. I'm comparing them using your own criteria. And Revolver measures up in very obvious ways, along with MMT and the self-titled (although I suppose the latter two could be put down as a matter of taste); much more obvious ways than some of your highly rated works at least. I might write a more detailed post on this later.
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TheHutts



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  • #27
  • Posted: 02/26/2018 22:38
  • Post subject: Re: Greatest Pop Albums of All Time
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AfterHours wrote:
I am not here to swindle people into thinking their chords were so outrageous (only mediocre/amateur musicians would actually think this)


"They were doing things nobody was doing. Their chords were outrageous, just outrageous, and their harmonies made it all valid" - Bob Dylan
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AfterHours



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  • #28
  • Posted: 02/26/2018 22:44
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TheHutts wrote:
"They were doing things nobody was doing. Their chords were outrageous, just outrageous, and their harmonies made it all valid" - Bob Dylan


Yes, Bob Dylan was a mediocre musician (from a technical standpoint).
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  • #29
  • Posted: 02/26/2018 23:09
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Facetious wrote:
AfterHours wrote:
@Facetious

Re: The Beatles vs whoever...

Try not to get in the trap of comparing them formally. Listen closely and compare them expressively/emotionally (vocally and instrumentally, then song-to-song consistency and impact), and the differential is pretty easy to see between them and higher rated works.

This applies as well when comparing them to other pop (or close) works (DBs, XTC, NMH, Stone Roses, Green, Soft Boys, St Vincent, Arcade Fire, etc) lest you feel I might only be referring to the Hendrix's and Coltrane's of the world.


My "tongue-in-cheek" comment mostly applied to the likes of Rubber Soul, Revolver, MMT, and the self-titled (which I'd say should probably be at least 6.5, 7, 6.5/7, and 6.5/7 on your scale, respectively). I also find his ratings of their pre-Rubber Soul work overly harsh; apparently Scaruffi believes Please Please Me, With The Beatles, Beatles for Sale (!!), and Help (!!!!) are among the worst albums ever. It's actually pretty hard to find artists who received that amount of 3/10's, or even one 3/10. Even comparing the rest of the ratings to what other related artists received, such as the Byrds, the Kinks and the Rolling Stones, reveals his clear bias against them, even if he's right that they're quite overrated.

Anyway, I'm not sure what a "formal" comparison means here. I'm comparing them using your own criteria. And Revolver measures up in very obvious ways, along with MMT and the self-titled (although I suppose the latter two could be put down as a matter of taste); much more obvious ways than some of your highly rated works at least. I might write a more detailed post on this later.


Re: Rubber Soul 6.5 or 7 ... absolutely not a chance, sorry ... not even close to the 7/10s listed. For instance, Stands for Decibels is vastly superior (especially rhythmically, much more galvanizing and resonant)

Re: The Beatles/White Album ... maybe but probably too inconsistent ... How does it compare to the expansive, double "art pop" albums of Todd Rundgren, or Olivia Tremor Control?

blah blah blah ... we've already had this conversation before on listology... Wink

Re: bias / 3/10s ... there is no bias with the ratings ... those albums are worthless especially if one is interested in works that meet my/Scaruffi's criteria ... though he does seems to revel in criticizing them in other artist bios and interviews ... based on emails, I can tell you that he gets pretty tired about being asked about them and doesn't understand why people just don't go listen to the other works rated above them to see if what he's saying makes sense ... If you listen to other 5's of the early 60s, they are quite mediocre overall but are clearly superior to those early Beatles albums

Re: comparing them "formally" ... A lot of people don't differentiate with much of anything above about a 6/6.5/7. If it pleases them, it is a masterpiece, and if something else is the most overwhelmingly miraculous or powerful music they've ever experienced, that is a masterpiece too (no or little differentiation). That's all I meant: just make sure you're really listening to the albums in question -- not just the structure ("this is a pop song so is equal to this other pop song" kind of thing...) but the expression as a whole and its parts. Skylarking is superior to Sgt Pepper... and something like Aphrodite's Child's 666 even more so, as it apes and expounds upon that album (or compare its emotional scope to The White Album). Stands for Decibels and White Soul are obviously superior to their albums from 1965 and earlier. An album such as Roxy Music's debut (which actually fully integrates progressive/Art Pop inclinations into their sound and emotional/conceptual expressiveness) is vastly superior to Revolver... And so on...
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AfterHours



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  • #30
  • Posted: 02/27/2018 00:46
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Facetious wrote:
I'm comparing them using your own criteria. And Revolver measures up in very obvious ways, along with MMT and the self-titled (although I suppose the latter two could be put down as a matter of taste); much more obvious ways than some of your highly rated works at least.


Such as?
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