Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN. - Music

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

YoungPunk wrote:

I dunno AfterHours, I'm gonna have to stick with my statements, Mahler's 9th over all Wagner for no reason, sounds like you're pushing something...

I wouldn't worry about it -- I dont know what the fuss is about saying one is #3 and Wagner's top 2 are "only" #5-#10 or something in the entire history of art. Perhaps the only way to briefly "explain" the qualitative difference between a 9.7-9.8 like Mahler's 9th and a 9.5-9.6-9.7 (or so) like The Ring/Tristan & Isolde would be to listen to each several times and pay close attention to each in relation to my criteria.

If I post a write up/review/essay of Mahler's (or Beethoven's) 9th it would have to be given the proper time such as my Citizen Kane analysis or, to a lesser extent, my Nostalghia analysis (see Movies and TV section for either) ... or even a sample/teaser version to even grasp a hint of it would have to be on the order of my brief dive into a Sistine Chapel analysis (see the conversation with sethmadsen on My Criteria page) or something on the order of my Mona Lisa analysis (see "Greatest Paintings" list -- scroll down to "Images" section).

But really man, I am very busy and rarely have the time to provide in depth analyses, especially for something as herculean a task as those at/near the top of my lists, and especially "on demand".

I will say this teaser though: every musical phrase of Beethoven's 9th is (1) relaying multiple emotional/conceptual statements simultaneously yet fully developed in and of itself (each is way more ambiguous and layered than is obvious; for instance, the heroic progression in developments of the first movement's 2nd and mid sections are not just heroically progressing in increased pace and suspense, but are fused by both downcast tones, angry/violent swaths/outcry, and a lonely, weeping funeral at its heart inside the main orchestral frame ... the whole symphony is never what it only seems on the surface, but an "endless" shift, metamorphosis, desperation, culmination and salvage of being); (2) every musical phrase is a prismatic (inverted, transposed, close variant) mirror of and to its other parts simultaneously in an impossible-to-believe infinity and cohesion of emotion and concept (if, in considering this work, you think there is no way with such seemingly incongruous parts, sudden developmental changes/leaps, differing movements and expansion of musical territory, that this could've been accomplished by anyone, let alone a deaf person who hadn't heard music for years, then you are right -- it was impossible). As an example the capping, lunging, upward, tense thrust of vocals and orchestra that ends the symphony is not just a fitting climactic ascension but, instrumentally and vocally, actually fuses all the symphony's movements into one build up then swift, momentous, fell swoop, shockingly culminating all in the most economical and violently joyful way possible. The whole symphony has been growing up to this, in an incredible network of compositional correlation. The whole symphony is built on its parts, and each of its parts are the whole symphony. The actual musical experience of this and its cognitive realization is too incredible for words, an unrelenting compositional and expressive epiphany. It is overwhelmingly miraculous. I (no joke) nearly choked up in thinking about it while writing this.
_________________
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Best Films
Best Paintings

Tha1ChiefRocka
Yeah, well hey, I'm really sorry.

Location: Kansas

AfterHours wrote:

Yes, you caught yourself (several highly rated post-1979) Very Happy

Hip Hop could be said to be analogous to Rock/other music as the documentary is to the rest of cinema. So in a sense that Hip Hop is usually more of a "document" of its times (particularly the social issues surrounding its mostly black artists' lives/situations), this may be true. But, as in documentaries vs fiction cinema, Hip Hop rarely equals the imagination and artistry and emotional/conceptual expressive conviction of the greatest Classical/Jazz/Rock albums. There are exceptions that do (or that approach) it but even something as amazing as Nation of Millions falls rather short of, say, Pop Group's Y or MC5s Kick Out the Jams.

I don't intend to put down your opinion, which is perfectly fine and I am a big fan of Ready to Die (I too consider it among the best Hip Hop albums) ...but as you probably know (or had guessed), I find the Shostakovich much more emotionally devastating and expressively masterful, right down to the haunted core of his psychology. Notorious BIG is one of my favorite rappers ever (and was on the "right" expressive track that so many rappers miss -- the desperation, anger and hardened pain in his vocal delivery is among the best ever) but he will never touch the naked, open wounded emotional devastation of Shostakovich's masterpieces. And doesn't even remotely approach Shostakovich compositionally.

An example of a contemporary work (to Ready to Die) that deals with the heavy despair of suicide that I would consider an all time masterpiece would be Down Colorful Hill by Red House Painters. Many works of history have captured deep states of depression but perhaps none so hauntingly sterile and depressing (right on the brink of being past the point of no return). It deals with the subject with such majesty that it is almost ecstacy, but also so mired in depression that it is almost nothing, almost death. Each slow-motion rhythm and articulation of music/voice is a gentle push into the ether of death, that indefinable state of being right as the person is dying but are still conscious and there with you, edging towards the other side.

For a more actively self-destructive/angered/violent/desperate version of such states/tendencies (more comparable to Ready to Die's intent), I don't think it is even close to as overpowering and impinging as something like Nine Inch Nail's Downward Spiral.

I certainly agree with all of that. Playing devil's advocate is too fun though, and as somebody who has never known a world without hip hop in it; I have to defend it.

I got to see that Shostakovich performed by some of the KC symphony members a couple of years ago; it was revelatory. I don't care for a lot of the stuff that Mark Kozelek had done, so I was always was skeptical of The Red House Painters. I listened to that album for the first time about a year ago, and I recently returned to it and realized how damned good it was. I probably need to move it up higher on my year list for 1992 which is relevant to Tilly's current endeavors.

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

Gowi wrote:

i cant believe im saying this but i agree with after hours

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

_________________
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AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Yes, you caught yourself (several highly rated post-1979) Very Happy

Hip Hop could be said to be analogous to Rock/other music as the documentary is to the rest of cinema. So in a sense that Hip Hop is usually more of a "document" of its times (particularly the social issues surrounding its mostly black artists' lives/situations), this may be true. But, as in documentaries vs fiction cinema, Hip Hop rarely equals the imagination and artistry and emotional/conceptual expressive conviction of the greatest Classical/Jazz/Rock albums. There are exceptions that do (or that approach) it but even something as amazing as Nation of Millions falls rather short of, say, Pop Group's Y or MC5s Kick Out the Jams.

I don't intend to put down your opinion, which is perfectly fine and I am a big fan of Ready to Die (I too consider it among the best Hip Hop albums) ...but as you probably know (or had guessed), I find the Shostakovich much more emotionally devastating and expressively masterful, right down to the haunted core of his psychology. Notorious BIG is one of my favorite rappers ever (and was on the "right" expressive track that so many rappers miss -- the desperation, anger and hardened pain in his vocal delivery is among the best ever) but he will never touch the naked, open wounded emotional devastation of Shostakovich's masterpieces. And doesn't even remotely approach Shostakovich compositionally.

An example of a contemporary work (to Ready to Die) that deals with the heavy despair of suicide that I would consider an all time masterpiece would be Down Colorful Hill by Red House Painters. Many works of history have captured deep states of depression but perhaps none so hauntingly sterile and depressing (right on the brink of being past the point of no return). It deals with the subject with such majesty that it is almost ecstacy, but also so mired in depression that it is almost nothing, almost death. Each slow-motion rhythm and articulation of music/voice is a gentle push into the ether of death, that indefinable state of being right as the person is dying but are still conscious and there with you, edging towards the other side.

For a more actively self-destructive/angered/violent/desperate version of such states/tendencies (more comparable to Ready to Die's intent), I don't think it is even close to as overpowering and impinging as something like Nine Inch Nail's Downward Spiral.

I certainly agree with all of that. Playing devil's advocate is too fun though, and as somebody who has never known a world without hip hop in it; I have to defend it.

I got to see that Shostakovich performed by some of the KC symphony members a couple of years ago; it was revelatory. I don't care for a lot of the stuff that Mark Kozelek had done, so I was always was skeptical of The Red House Painters. I listened to that album for the first time about a year ago, and I recently returned to it and realized how damned good it was. I probably need to move it up higher on my year list for 1992 which is relevant to Tilly's current endeavors.

Re: Shostakovich SQ #8 live performance ... Wow -- lucky! -- must've been an intense experience

Re: Down Colorful Hill ... I had a similar experience and re-evaluation with it. It was actually a difficult album for me to fully connect with for a while because of the sheer depths and "sterility" of its depression. For some time it sounded like a flaw in execution, a deterrant to its emotional color, connectedness and perhaps even a mild failure in musicality, but then I realized how extraordinary and singular it was to capture this particularly profound stage. And the album can be heard as a very gradual emergence from it (while not actually escaping it) culminating with the sarcastic but honest/serious, violent death wish of Lord Kill the Pain and then Michael, as if awoke from a coma/near death experience and is now looking around and gently considering the idea of living on while reminiscing on his past nostalgia
_________________
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

For all the haters, what should have won last year instead?

YoungPunk

I like Shostakovich Piano Concerto no. 2 (The one based off of real piano exercises.)

YoungPunk

Also Festive Overture (The popular one!)

Hayden

Location: CDMX

sethmadsen wrote:

what should have won last year instead?

Not that Lamar winning is a problem of mine, but it would've been cool to see Arca win. Least it would've fit the bill... ish...

EDIT: Nvm, not eligible. I pick Jlin's Black Origami.

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

Hayden wrote:

Not that Lamar winning is a problem of mine, but it would've been cool to see Arca win. Least it would've fit the bill... ish...

EDIT: Nvm, not eligible. I pick Jlin's Black Origami.

Cool.

Also why is Arca not eligible?

YoungPunk

AfterHours wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it -- I dont know what the fuss is about saying one is #3 and Wagner's top 2 are "only" #5-#10 or something in the entire history of art. Perhaps the only way to briefly "explain" the qualitative difference between a 9.7-9.8 like Mahler's 9th and a 9.5-9.6-9.7 (or so) like The Ring/Tristan & Isolde would be to listen to each several times and pay close attention to each in relation to my criteria.

If I post a write up/review/essay of Mahler's (or Beethoven's) 9th it would have to be given the proper time such as my Citizen Kane analysis or, to a lesser extent, my Nostalghia analysis (see Movies and TV section for either) ... or even a sample/teaser version to even grasp a hint of it would have to be on the order of my brief dive into a Sistine Chapel analysis (see the conversation with sethmadsen on My Criteria page) or something on the order of my Mona Lisa analysis (see "Greatest Paintings" list -- scroll down to "Images" section).

But really man, I am very busy and rarely have the time to provide in depth analyses, especially for something as herculean a task as those at/near the top of my lists, and especially "on demand".

I will say this teaser though: every musical phrase of Beethoven's 9th is (1) relaying multiple emotional/conceptual statements simultaneously yet fully developed in and of itself (each is way more ambiguous and layered than is obvious; for instance, the heroic progression in developments of the first movement's 2nd and mid sections are not just heroically progressing in increased pace and suspense, but are fused by both downcast tones, angry/violent swaths/outcry, and a lonely, weeping funeral at its heart inside the main orchestral frame ... the whole symphony is never what it only seems on the surface, but an "endless" shift, metamorphosis, desperation, culmination and salvage of being); (2) every musical phrase is a prismatic (inverted, transposed, close variant) mirror of and to its other parts simultaneously in an impossible-to-believe infinity and cohesion of emotion and concept (if, in considering this work, you think there is no way with such seemingly incongruous parts, sudden developmental changes/leaps, differing movements and expansion of musical territory, that this could've been accomplished by anyone, let alone a deaf person who hadn't heard music for years, then you are right -- it was impossible). As an example the capping, lunging, upward, tense thrust of vocals and orchestra that ends the symphony is not just a fitting climactic ascension but, instrumentally and vocally, actually fuses all the symphony's movements into one build up then swift, momentous, fell swoop, shockingly culminating all in the most economical and violently joyful way possible. The whole symphony has been growing up to this, in an incredible network of compositional correlation. The whole symphony is built on its parts, and each of its parts are the whole symphony. The actual musical experience of this and its cognitive realization is too incredible for words, an unrelenting compositional and expressive epiphany. It is overwhelmingly miraculous. I (no joke) nearly choked up in thinking about it while writing this.

I presume you mean Mahler's Ninth? This is what I was looking for. Thanks. I guess maybe what you are saying is true but it just doesn't do that for me subjectively. Maybe other of Mahler's symphonies sure, but this one I understand is mainly celebrated for being a very "modern" symphony, not on its substance, which is not good for me. Then again maybe you're really talking about Beethoven's ninth then it makes more sense, but I think you're talking about Mahler's ninth. I guess I'm just not a "symphony" person.