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AfterHours



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  • #61
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 05:50
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sethmadsen wrote:
AfterHours wrote:
sethmadsen wrote:
I'll just let this "tribute" speak for itself. If you think this means nothing, then, please continue dismissing any and every evidence I give of anything special about them... if you can objectively look at this and give any real feedback, then I'd be happy to address your criteria you gave earlier in comparison to VU, another group I think is at times on par with The Beatles, and (also maybe we change this to a PM or something?)

Now, yes there is that John Lennon joke that Ringo isn't even the best drummer in the band, but if you know anything about them, this is exactly the kind of humor in the band and is a nod to Paul being quite the multi-instrumentalist (also doing drums for The Beatles). Is he the most technical drummer ever, no. Does he have a feel and "playing to the song" - writing melodies with the drums, that some of the best drummers envy, absolutely. To me technical drummers are a dime a dozen - playing with feeling as Ringo did (dismiss all you want, there's only these drummers who disagree, and countless more):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJTjjAXDZSY


Sorry you take offense to this. But I'm not going to pretend like he is remarkable.

I said I dont see how it's significant in an era when... etc. I did not say his work "means nothing". His style was interesting, slightly idiosynchratic and aligned well to the Beatles work. But similar expressive tendencies had already been culminated by albums such as Brilliant Corners (and other, particularly 50s, Jazz) in much more creative, charismaric, vibrant, "melodic" turns by Roach (also his work with Rollins and his own albums). And there have been countless more creative and interesting drummers in melodic Rock or Pop ever since Ringo's time. Seriously, Max Roach brought this sort of thing to a whole new and remarkably communicative level. I am not saying Starr is a useless or pointless drummer -- he is competent and aligns well to their songs. I am saying he pales in comparison to giants of the art. I am quite sure if he had more range and less technical limitation he may have influenced them to push their rhythms and structures further. Any other conclusion is quite a stretch (imo) and clearly -- primarily -- a justification for the band he was in. I would assert (as much as it might irk you) that 99% of the reason Ringo is mentioned among the greats from time to time is because he was in the Beatles, not because his skills, technique, or other factors, were extraordinary.

Note: If you want to hear an astonishing example of culminating this sort of expression in the extended suites of Progressive Metal, I would recommend becoming familiar with Dream Theater's Images and Words (if not already).


I'm not offended by what you are saying. I am wondering if you even watched the youtube video and wondering what you thought of Dave Grohl's comment that he was the king of feel. Or any of the comments that were made. Or did you completely dismiss them as knowing nothing about drumming or music? It feels like you completely dismissed it and carried on about nothing mentioned in the youtube video. How can I provide any evidence if it isn't even evaluated?

And yes, we probably wouldn't know Ringo if he weren't in the Beatles, that's ok. We wouldn't have heard of Max Roach without his affiliations either (filling in for Ellington's drummer).

Now I love Max Roach's drumming and probably 90% of the suggestions you make. I suppose the one thing that's different is others are putting Ringo on the same page as other greats and you are denying it... do you have any real evidence supporting why all these claims are false from countless professional musicians, music critics, and music historians? It seems pretty clear that they disagree with you about his emotive, innovative (beyond the quirk that he played right handed kit, left handed), and melodic playing.


Ive seen the video before and watched it again.

Evidence? Where's theirs? Compared to who? I can keep going with examples that far surpassed him in all aspects. I doubt any of them would (truly) disagree if pointed out. They probably wouldnt say it openly out of respect but if you think they honestly think he is in the same league as those I mention, you're out of your mind.

Ask Dave Grohl, when he is not in the middle of a tribute video for Starr, if he feels Ringo truly -- honest point blank opinion -- surpassed Roach's feel, or in any aspect of drumming at all? Do you honestly -- no bullshit -- think he does? Give me a break.

This mythic annointing gets idiotic after awhile.

Ask Ringo to play along to Brilliant Corners and he will look at you like you're fucking crazy. I'll spare the reiteration of Dream Theater.
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AfterHours



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  • #62
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 07:44
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Tha1ChiefRocka
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  • #63
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 08:30
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That's why playing Led Zeppelin songs is annoying. You have to be absolutely rock solid to do some of the songs. "Immigrant Song" is easy, because the riff and the drum beat is nearly identical. "The Wanton Song", as the video demonstrates, takes nearly the same beat, but applies it to a more complex tune.

Probably the most fun Beatles songs to play on the drums. (Keyword being fun; I like Ringo, because he's a good person to listen to learn how to fill appropriately. But yeah, I could name about 50 other people I'd put ahead of him if I were making a list.)


1. I Want You (She's So Heavy)-- There's a lot of room for improvisation in here.
2. Helter Skelter-- Just so you can yell the famous Ringo line.
3. She Said, She Said-- The classic Ringo fills are a good way to learn to move around the kit in a linear fashion.
4. Come Together-- Much for the same reason as She Said.
5. Strawberry Fields Forever-- Room for improvisation.
6. Hey Bulldog-- The hardest rocker besides Helter Skelter.
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



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  • #64
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 14:48
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Again, nobody said Ringo was technically the greatest drummer. You are asking Ringo to become a session musician and mimic someone else's work. You did not refute his melodic drumming, emotive playing, or innovation as was the point of the video - and I honestly think Dave Grohl would answer with, well those drummers were different. Not that Ringo is subpar like you are claiming and have yet to give any real evidence of such or refute the drummers in the video.

Serious question to both of you: would you really put Moe Tucker as vastly more innovative than Ringo. Vastly more technically proficient or emotive or melodic?

What they said is he wrote melodies with his drumming. He was the king of feel... he could make the simplest drum parts feel bigger than they were and he played the song, not a bad-ass drum part, making him quite the emotive drummer.

It's like Willie Nelson. Many are dismissive of his musical ability because he often doesn't wow you, but dude is a fantastic guitar player and singer if you pay attention/know music.

To be clear, I'd probably put Ringo at my 25th most favorite drummer. I'm not saying he's the best. And yes I'd easily rank Bonham above Ringo when it comes to technical proficiency. When it comes to melodic playing and writing drum hooks and drumming that is filled with emotion... idk... I honestly would put both of them in a top 5. I can think of countless Ringo melodies, but really struggle to find more than 5 Bonham melodies - but he supported very well the music (if that makes sense)... better than Ringo could have... if that makes sense. But what I am saying is what he brings to the table is much more than what most people realize. He doesn't just hold a place for mediocre music to be played on top of him as was stated before and refuted by the video.

You said to keep going in this thread, but while it's been a good discussion, it's taking up your metal thread, so I made this: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=7


Last edited by RoundTheBend on 11/18/2018 15:23; edited 1 time in total
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



Location: Ground Control
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  • #65
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 14:58
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Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:
That's why playing Led Zeppelin songs is annoying. You have to be absolutely rock solid to do some of the songs. "Immigrant Song" is easy, because the riff and the drum beat is nearly identical. "The Wanton Song", as the video demonstrates, takes nearly the same beat, but applies it to a more complex tune.

Probably the most fun Beatles songs to play on the drums. (Keyword being fun; I like Ringo, because he's a good person to listen to learn how to fill appropriately. But yeah, I could name about 50 other people I'd put ahead of him if I were making a list.)


1. I Want You (She's So Heavy)-- There's a lot of room for improvisation in here.
2. Helter Skelter-- Just so you can yell the famous Ringo line.
3. She Said, She Said-- The classic Ringo fills are a good way to learn to move around the kit in a linear fashion.
4. Come Together-- Much for the same reason as She Said.
5. Strawberry Fields Forever-- Room for improvisation.
6. Hey Bulldog-- The hardest rocker besides Helter Skelter.


Can you say more about developing your feel with Ringo's drum parts? Because they are "so simple" - do you find yourself needing to play more emotively?
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AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

  • #66
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 16:25
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sethmadsen wrote:
Again, nobody said Ringo was technically the greatest drummer. You are asking Ringo to become a session musician and mimic someone else's work. You did not refute his melodic drumming, emotive playing, or innovation as was the point of the video - and I honestly think Dave Grohl would answer with, well those drummers were different. Not that Ringo is subpar like you are claiming and have yet to give any real evidence of such or refute the drummers in the video.


Your evidence amounts to "he was a melodic drummer (whoa!), played within the songs (wut!?) in slightly idiosynchratic ways (during the 60s!? No!), therefore was "extraordinary". Dave Grohl's imagined answer amounts to: "he was a drummer that was playing songs that were different than other drummers/bands songs".

What I am quite sure I am running into in this argument is I am discussing this with a person (you) that (a) is not thinking and looking for himself, but parroting others views, un-scrutinized, without comparison/context; (b) seems to think that doing "something" equals "something extraordinary" (or approaching this); (c) probably does not evaluate music and has not really listened to the Jazz and Pop/Rock works that are demonstrably superior therefore is unaware of the evidence contrary to his argument.

With this in mind, requires I show evidence that Ringo was not a drummer that played competently in The Beatles' songs (seriously, this is what your requirement amounts to in the context of "among the greatest drummers").

I think our realities of what we have listened to and assimilated are just too different, so I have an exercise where you can just prove it for yourself:

Look up the definitions of "extraordinary", "remarkable", "amazing" and any alike descriptors/synonyms if you want.

Listen to any acclaimed 50s Jazz album, especially those I (or Scaruffi) rate the highest, in addition to the likes of Roach's, Dolphy's, Mingus, Coltrane's main works through 1964. Listen to any and all of the pop albums or melodic rock albums on my list. See if you can find a single example where what Starr accomplishes isn't being accomplished and (in most cases) surpassed.

Revisit definitions and ask yourself if Starr can therefore be described as such.

Try doing the same with the drummers I mentioned.

sethmadsen wrote:

Serious question to both of you: would you really put Moe Tucker as vastly more innovative than Ringo. Vastly more technically proficient or emotive or melodic?


Innovative, yes, of course. Probably the most original drummer of the 60s. Emotive: creatively represents and articulates exact emotional sensations and conceptualizes particular states of mind and expressionist "signs" or "metaphoric performance art symbols/sensations" in each of the songs. You probably don't understand The Velvet Underground and Moe Tucker's drumming if "technical" (in the sense that I think you mean) and "melodic" is a relevant question to you.

sethmadsen wrote:

What they said is he wrote melodies with his drumming. He was the king of feel... he could make the simplest drum parts feel bigger than they were and he played the song, not a bad-ass drum part, making him quite the emotive drummer.


Its actually pretty tough to find a great melodic, tuneful album of the period, in 50s Jazz, and post 60s, where these attributes arent matched and surpassed.

Sorry I dont want to continue the discussion here or anywhere. It is a waste of time in my opinion, unless we can meet eye to eye in such evaluations/conditions mentioned above. Which Im not expecting and not contending you should be under any obligation to do so. But its the only way for it to be worthwhile.

Doesn't mean you can't respond, or that I will ignore it if you do, or that you can't claw back at this answer if you want. Apologies for the bluntness and what could be argued to be somewhat rude in how I've responded. I just have to call a spade a spade -- in my opinion -- okay if you disagree. But no, I don't want to continue the actual argument as it is not going to go anywhere worthwhile and I am limited on time and don't want to spend what I do have on this. The conclusions are there to be drawn by anyone that wants to listen to/revisit/more closely eval the albums on my Rock/Jazz lists, or similar lists and historical context.
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Last edited by AfterHours on 11/18/2018 17:16; edited 1 time in total
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



Location: Ground Control
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  • #67
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 17:14
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Sounds like you are not able to refute the claims directly.

A) I'm not parroting. I'm showing evidence. I could say you parrot Scaruffi and don't think for yourself, but I don't because that is not only incredibly rude, but also I think we both know we are smarter than that. He also shows no evidence of his claims (in what reviews I've read of his). Also, fantastic ad hominem logic.

B) It appears these drummers thought Ringo did something extraordinary... and you have yet to be able to refute that (or it appears even understand it with your "wut?" comment).

C) Oh yes, this totally is the case. I have never seriously spent hours evaluating music... critiquing aspects of music from a literary theory perspective or a musicians perspective (someone who has been surrounded by professional musicians my whole life... did I mention my brother studied with Farberman (probably didn't even know who he was or bothered to look him up) and we discuss music all the time?) Spot on analysis my friend.

EDIT: I actually listened to VU&N today 3 times (2x on the vinyl I have of it and once on their 45th anniversary edition) to take notes and really discuss this, but now I'm completely demotivated to do so since I don't seriously analyze music... also re-read the wikipedia articles on both albums. I thought maybe I could have a real discussion.

Also you totally misunderstood these amazing musicians comments. It's not playing within the song like hey, you did it, you played the song and didn't screw up! You aren't even understanding what they are saying and shows your inability to properly address the issue as well. They are speaking to the point that he understood the aesthetics of songwriting, the subtleties, to make a melody of drumming instead of just playing a beat to it. The whole reason why I'm doing this is you keep saying in the past 15 years NOBODY can actually refute what you are saying. As I do so, you can't actually meet me with any evidence or refute the exact thing. Instead you hide behind hot air of what your standards are. Seems the fact is actually contrary and that you are unable to muster any evidence contrary to any evidence given. I'll bet the past 15 years are filled with conversations just like this one.

I'll drop this for sure as it is clear you can't see both sides of the coin and disregard any shred of evidence that A) The Beatles were incredibly important musicians and accomplished way more than what you give them credit for as given by so many legit sources B) The fact that you think she's a vastly superior drummer than Ringo shows your bias. She's really not. It seems this is where the conversation usually drops off - too much evidence mounts in the contrary and none of it is seriously considered or evaluated.

The kind of evidence you are giving me is Aretha Franklin is a better singer, John Boham is a better drummer, Bob Dylan is a better lyricist, Flea is a better bassist, Slash is a better guitar player, or this one album has clearly more emotion - all of these artists show the greatest extent of artistry, therefore The Velvet Underground can't be any good because really there are stronger artistic endeavors than VU&N. There's better singing, drumming, emotive playing, intellect, etc. than VU&N's album, yet it's still great for sure. That doesn't discount it's greatness. I think both Brian Eno and Peter Buck said it inspired thousands to make a band. It seems like it just doesn't add up how your logic is applied. What I'm saying is if I were to apply your logic to VU&N I easily could find something better in every category you listed.

I think we can agree on Classical and Jazz aesthetics possibly but in the "rock" world we have vastly different opinions (and can't even speak on logical terms) on what constitutes amazing musicality, performances, intellect, heart, etc., even when given evidence to the contrary. You'd rather use YouTube comments to refute a world renowned composer's analysis of The Beatles... who also didn't understand his claim.


Last edited by RoundTheBend on 11/18/2018 17:30; edited 2 times in total
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AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

  • #68
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 17:28
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sethmadsen wrote:
Sounds like you are not able to refute the claims directly.

A) I'm not parroting. I'm showing evidence. I could say you parrot Scaruffi and don't think for yourself, but I don't because that is not only incredibly rude, but also I think we both know we are smarter than that. He also shows no evidence of his claims (in what reviews I've read of his). Also, fantastic ad hominem logic.

B) It appears these drummers thought Ringo did something extraordinary... and you have yet to be able to refute that (or it appears even understand it with your "wut?" comment).

C) Oh yes, this totally is the case. I have never seriously spent hours evaluating music... critiquing aspects of music from a literary theory perspective or a musicians perspective (someone who has been surrounded by professional musicians my whole life... did I mention my brother studied with Farberman (probably didn't even know who he was or bothered to look him up) and we discuss music all the time?) Spot on analysis my friend.

Also you totally misunderstood these amazing musicians comments. It's not playing within the song like hey, you did it, you played the song and didn't screw up! You aren't even understanding what they are saying and shows your inability to properly address the issue as well. The whole reason why I'm doing this is you keep saying in the past 15 years NOBODY can actually refute what you are saying. As I do so, you can't actually meet me with any evidence or refute the exact thing. Instead you hide behind hot air of what your standards are. Seems the fact is actually contrary and that you are unable to muster any evidence contrary to any evidence given. I'll bet the past 15 years are filled with conversations just like this one.

I'll drop this for sure as it is clear you can't see both sides of the coin and disregard any shred of evidence that A) The Beatles were incredibly important musicians and accomplished way more than what you give them credit for as given by so many legit sources B) The fact that you think she's a vastly superior drummer than Ringo shows your bias. She's really not. It seems this is where the conversation usually drops off - too much evidence mounts in the contrary and none of it is seriously considered or evaluated.

The kind of evidence you are giving me is Aretha Franklin is a better singer, John Boham is a better drummer, Bob Dylan is a better lyricist, Flea is a better bassist, Slash is a better guitar player, or this one album has clearly more emotion - all of these artists show the greatest extent of artistry, therefore The Velvet Underground can't be any good because really there are stronger artistic endeavors than VU&N. There's better singing, drumming, emotive playing, intellect, etc. than VU&N's album, yet it's still great for sure. That doesn't discount it's greatness. It seems like it just doesn't add up how your logic is applied. What I'm saying is if I were to apply your logic to VU&N I easily could find something better in every category you listed.

I think we can agree on Classical and Jazz aesthetics possibly but in the "rock" world we have vastly different opinions (and can't even speak on logical terms) on what constitutes amazing musicality, performances, intellect, heart, etc., even when given evidence to the contrary. You'd rather use YouTube comments to refute a world renowned composer's analysis of The Beatles... who also didn't understand his claim.


I stand by what I said in all cases and anyone is welcome to look at the examples I posed or alluded to, and compare to Ringo's. Completely fine if you disagree and not surprising that you took offense. I find it quite offensive to the countless superior drummers that worked much harder and were much more creative and gifted, and that Ringo has been elevated undeservedly above them because he played in The Beatles. So we are even I suppose.

As a perhaps unimportant note, I updated some of the replies while/just before you were posting this comment. May make a slight difference, probably not much.
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RoundTheBend
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  • #69
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 17:35
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That's not why he was elevated, but keep ignoring what they said so you can keep thinking that.

On another note, I stated, and agree there were more talented and better drummers than Ringo (overall). When accounting for what he is great at: melodic playing, emotive playing, etc., he's easily comparable to any greats, as was the statement made in the video and is my own analysis as well. I can't think of a single melodic drum hook on VU&N (and I'm not saying there should be one, it's a different style of music... but still it's the viola and guitars that stand out on the album, and nothing really about the drums... if your ears hear something amazing from the drums on VU&N, I'm all ears. Please show me how amazing she is on that album, extra-ordinary beyond anything Ringo ever did...

I do like her drumming on European Son, Venus In Furs, and Heroin, but I wouldn't call any of that extra-ordinary.

You keep thinking I've never heard Elvin Jones or Max Roach as well...which is not true.


Last edited by RoundTheBend on 11/18/2018 17:42; edited 1 time in total
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Tha1ChiefRocka
Yeah, well hey, I'm really sorry.



Location: Kansas
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  • #70
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 17:40
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sethmadsen wrote:
Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:
That's why playing Led Zeppelin songs is annoying. You have to be absolutely rock solid to do some of the songs. "Immigrant Song" is easy, because the riff and the drum beat is nearly identical. "The Wanton Song", as the video demonstrates, takes nearly the same beat, but applies it to a more complex tune.

Probably the most fun Beatles songs to play on the drums. (Keyword being fun; I like Ringo, because he's a good person to listen to learn how to fill appropriately. But yeah, I could name about 50 other people I'd put ahead of him if I were making a list.)


1. I Want You (She's So Heavy)-- There's a lot of room for improvisation in here.
2. Helter Skelter-- Just so you can yell the famous Ringo line.
3. She Said, She Said-- The classic Ringo fills are a good way to learn to move around the kit in a linear fashion.
4. Come Together-- Much for the same reason as She Said.
5. Strawberry Fields Forever-- Room for improvisation.
6. Hey Bulldog-- The hardest rocker besides Helter Skelter.


Can you say more about developing your feel with Ringo's drum parts? Because they are "so simple" - do you find yourself needing to play more emotively?


I mean, I'm a low-functioning apeman, which is why I play the drums. I just hit the things that make sounds.

There are rarely any contrasting time signatures in a Beatles song, so they're pretty easy to play. It does allow the drummer to focus more on "emotion", I guess, because you're not having to treat yourself quite like a human metronome in that case. I feel relaxed when I play a Beatles song, and I feel like a brain surgeon if I try to play an easier Elvin Jones song. I would rather be able to say that I could play a mediocre version of an Elvin Jones drum part than say I could play a Beatles song though.
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