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What counts as an 'album' nowadays?

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Rockdrigo



Gender: Male
Age: 24
Location: Cochabamba, Bolivia
Bolivia

#31 | Posted: 03/14/2019 19:48 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
It was just aggressive.

And your right, it is your opinion, which you can have, it's just a shit opinion.

Glad to see the forums are as outsider-friendly as ever.

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
You're critiquing art based on extra-artistic qualities…

How is length not a quality to consider when talking about music? It's the canvas on which the work exists. Music lasts for a time, as paintings occupy a space. If not using your framework correctly is not a valid criticism, what is?

It’s ironic, because you commented on the “Women's History Month” thread, which actually IS about celebrating music for non-musical reasons.

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
…your biases and preconceptions of what music (or, in your case, the rock album as a format)

What’s the “rock album format”? We are not in the 70s anymore; most recording musicians, regardless of genre, want to create on album format out of their own volition.

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
A quadruple album can leave a lot to be desired when exploring the possibilities of its theme or whatever…

The “too long” discussion is a whole different beast, since it’s not about not living up to your potential but about overstaying your welcome. Since this is about EPs, I rather not go there.

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
…ten minutes can be an impactful statement, and vice versa. […] I don't have the shit opinion that time is correlated to quality.

I did not say it works like that, I’m just stating you need a bare minimum time to convert me into thinking you did your best and not just rushed it out.

You can make a lot of great things in 10 minutes, but 10 minutes of genius seem a lot less impressive when the art form pulls-out 40 minutes of genius regularly.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash



Age: 24
Location: Massachusetts
United States

#32 | Posted: 03/14/2019 21:07 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Rockdrigo wrote:
It’s ironic, because you commented on the “Women's History Month” thread, which actually IS about celebrating music for non-musical reasons.


I'm pretty sure everyone in that thread is celebrating the music we're posting based on its own artistic merit.
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raadfactoryxny



Gender: Male
Age: 18
Location: Copenhagen
Denmark

#33 | Posted: 03/15/2019 12:13 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Rockdrigo wrote:
raadfactoryxny wrote:

EP:

3-8 tracks (no more no less)
+
15-39mins

Don't you think 39 minutes is too long for an EP? Last time I checked, the standard album was 40-45 minutes long, which implies you think almost half of what people consider to be an album not an album.


Maybe 15-35mins then, but it means that Eazy-E's It's On is an album
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Kool Keith Sweat
skronkist



Location: Tejas
United States

#34 | Posted: 03/16/2019 01:29 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Rockdrigo wrote:
What’s the “rock album format”?


The popularity of the 33 1/3 LP rose almost concurrently with the dominance of rock in popular music. It's where this assumption

Rockdrigo wrote:
40 minutes


comes from. The popular canon is almost entirely 40 minute albums because of the limitations of the LP. It's what most people grow up listening to, so entire cultures have a bias towards the normality of a ~40 minute chunk of music. A moment of introspection on whether you're listening to music for music or whether your listening for whether music is in a culturally inculcated frame might help.

Rockdrigo wrote:
We are not in the 70s anymore; most recording musicians, regardless of genre, want to create on album format out of their own volition.


You're right, we're not in the '70s anymore, which is exactly why musicians aren't bound by the limits of relict physical media but only the expectations left behind (e.g. 40 minutes). An excellent example that comes to mind is Autechre's release schedule the last few years - they are finally realizing the freedom of the digital age. And your viewpoint is still skewed towards popular music (rock). Classical and jazz lean towards compositions, which range from seconds to years. >80% of house and techno are singles, not LPs. There are performances that are never recorded. There is music that never ends. And music that never was. Some composers and musicians bend time and space like taffy. And what are you listening for? 40 minutes?

Imagine this. The Mona Lisa. Now imagine the Mona Lisa enlarged 2x. Now imagine the frame the museum put around the Mona Lisa enlarged 2x, but it surrounds the originally-sized Mona Lisa. I imagine the second doesn't seem so silly but the third one does. Would you critique the Mona Lisa in the third scenario any differently than the first? Wasn't it the museum's folly to put such a silly frame around the Mona Lisa? According to you, the third scenario is only "half a statement." I use frame instead of canvas (or time for musicians, like you said) because you are explicitly not concerned with what musicians do with their time but rather that they fill some frame that you think is a proper size, like a 40-minute release, the rock album format.

Rockdrigo wrote:
Glad to see the forums are as outsider-friendly as ever.


Also, this is always used whenever there's a disagreement. No one's here to pat you on the back for your utterances. If you don't want strong discourse then don't share strong opinions.

baystateoftheart wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone in that thread is celebrating the music we're posting based on its own artistic merit.


Also, this. We're categorizing music based in gender. We're not critiquing music based on gender. Lrn 2 think critically.


Last edited by Kool Keith Sweat on 03/16/2019 01:59; edited 1 time in total
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Rockdrigo



Gender: Male
Age: 24
Location: Cochabamba, Bolivia
Bolivia

#35 | Posted: 03/17/2019 17:19 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
We're categorizing music based in gender. We're not critiquing music based on gender. Lrn 2 think critically.

I’m critiquing how you feel insulted that I consider length-managing a valid music-related topic, yet feel comfortable bringing up a totally unrelated one (gender) to a music conversation. Lrn 2 read m8.

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
[Wouldn’t it be] the museum's folly to put such a silly frame around the Mona Lisa? According to you, the third scenario is only "half a statement." I use frame instead of canvas (or time for musicians, like you said) because you are explicitly not concerned with what musicians do with their time but rather that they fill some frame that you think is a proper size, like a 40-minute release, the rock album format.

This painting comparison is getting out of hand. There is not a format for paints with a distinguishable track record at showing the best the art form has to offer, as I believe there is for recorded music.

I do care about many other aspects, you are just supposing otherwise because one of those variables makes you uncomfortable.

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
- It's what most people grow up listening to, so entire cultures have a bias towards the normality of a ~40 minute chunk of music.
- You're right, we're not in the '70s anymore, which is exactly why musicians aren't bound by the limits of relict physical media but only the expectations left behind (e.g. 40 minutes).
- The popular canon is almost entirely 40 minute albums because of the limitations of the LP.
- A moment of introspection on whether you're listening to music for music or whether your listening for whether music is in a culturally inculcated frame might help.

It may be hard to believe but not everybody lives like in your country. Where I come from no one listens to albums. Nobody told me to like the album format, I made the choice to explore its world because it looked fun.

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
[Autechre's is] finally realizing the freedom of the digital age. Classical and jazz lean towards compositions, which range from seconds to years. >80% of house and techno are singles, not LPs. There are performances that are never recorded. There is music that never ends. And music that never was. Some composers and musicians bend time and space like taffy. And what are you listening for? 40 minutes?

Doesn't it occurs you that I KNOW there are many more ways to make and listen to music than albums, yet I still find albums the most compelling one? I rather not eat whatever random shit artist decide to make-up trying to stand out. I have reasons to like what I like. I gave you some of them, yet you prefer to go off tangents.

You seem to have a fixation with the 40 minutes too, when it’s just a number I used as an example. I even said I can see how a 20 minute album could feel “complete” in my very first post, if you are even reading them. Seems you are just supposing things at this point, like:

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
Your viewpoint is still skewed towards popular music (rock)

I didn’t say that. What I did say was that artists, regardless of genre, shift towards making albums, including independent ones that don’t need to oblige to any industry’s standards (just take a look at Bandcamp, ffs). The album format just ticks most people’s boxes because (maybe, just maybe) it’s a good, rounded format.

Clearly we will not see eye to eye, since what you find restrictive I find liberating. I didn’t even shit on the EP format, just stated why I feel it’s incomplete; yet you are cool with dismissing the format you don’t like as “entry level to the real shit”. I don’t assume everybody else is just ignorant, but you act like musicians and listeners are going to come to a similar conclusion to yours because yours is right.


(This next rant is veering off-topic, but anyways…)

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
Also, this is always used whenever there's a disagreement. No one's here to pat you on the back for your utterances. If you don't want strong discourse then don't share strong opinions.

I don’t have problems with a strong discourse, if what you want to do is have an actual discussion and not sneak low punches every few lines to feel more secure about your opinion. You didn’t even say anything until I asked you to explain yourself. If you didn’t notice, I’m calling you out on your dickness aside from giving arguments, not instead.

It’s almost a joke at this point that the forum dwellers wonder how to attract more people while shooting down opinions that go against their cannon. If a user’s first post experience was getting it shun down on a sardonic tone as “naïve”, “boxed-in” or straight-up “shit” (by a moderator, no less), I doubt he would stay around for long.

I guess is good to know that I have to “take it like a man” if I ever dare to share an incorrect opinion on how to enjoy my hobby.
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