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AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: Oregon, USA

#231 | Posted: 04/13/2019 02:40 | Post subject: Reply with quote
sethmadsen wrote:
I think you could simplify it down to this:

Easy=nobody is shitting on a saxophone, guitar, or piano.
Hard=somebody, if not lots of people, are shitting on a saxophone, guitar, or piano.

Laughing Cool

Ok... I'll take this seriously someday. I'm an adult, I swear.


Aaaaannnnnnddddd... that's a wrap folks!
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AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: Oregon, USA

#232 | Posted: 04/13/2019 02:48 | Post subject: Reply with quote
mianfei wrote:
AfterHours wrote:
Further...

Some more points to think with:

-This current challenge ratings scale is still in its earlier stages of development so I do want to reiterate that I am not necessarily dismissing your suggestions, but that I will consider them upon any revisits of those works. The only one that I would probably dismiss outright is Spleen and Ideal being "far too low". Maybe a 4.5 or 5, but most of it is pretty accessible especially after its initial tracks. It's not going to get much higher than that when alike, but more challenging works like Dead Magic and Desertshore, or (instrumentally or in terms of ethos, emotionality) Irrlicht, Popol Vuh, Black Tape for a Blue Girl, offer more difficult content.

-Yeti very well could be 6 or 6.5. When I Was A Boy is a very tough one, so I might agree with you (maybe 6 or 6.5) ... it finds a strange balance between accessible and avant-garde (in some ways, like Kate Bush's better albums)

-The truly challenging albums (relative to the whole scale, all music) is a threshold crossed at roughly "5.0" (and starts taking shape around 3.5 or 4) so try not to think of 5 as an "easy" score just because it's only 1/2 way to a 10. Remember I am rating them relative to the Trout Mask Replicas and Twin Infinitives of the world ... and in Jazz, perhaps Anthony Braxton's Sax Improvisations Series F and Cecil Taylor's Unit Structures and Sun Ra's Atlantis ... or in Classical the likes of Wagner's most challenging works or Morton Feldmen, Elliot Carter and so forth ...
Thanks for your prompt reply – I meant to reply much earlier but was on a restricted computer in a public library when I made my original attempt!

If what you are saying about Spleen and Ideal is true, it would imply that all the other artists mentioned alongside it would need to have their challenge factor increased somewhat. Personal experience with them is very limited but what I do know about Popol Vuh certainly supports the contention of my preceding sentence.

For what it’s worth, I have bought and listened to Unit Structures and did not find it so difficult as you are suggesting. It does seem to me that I would find Irrlicht or Black Tape for a Blue Girl more challenging than Cecil Taylor.

I often think the reason for these differences relates to background. I am well aware that whereas most people who get to listen to these avant-garde music works lived their entire life in inner city academic communities. However, I lived my childhood in quiet, highly conservative, low-density Melbourne suburbs wholly closed off from cutting-edge musical trends, and like to believe that this influence from my childhood shapes how I experience listening even 22 years after leaving such an environment. What I have often thought to be the case is that to reach audiences in such low-density environments as suburban Australia (some rural areas in Asia and tropical mountain are more densely populated than Australian outer suburbs) leads to a focus on loudness, humour or sparse production to make songs as catchy as possible – it is striking how catchy the songs of leading Australian pop groups were when I was a teenager.


Re: all others challenge rating rising along with Spleen & Ideal ... Yes, possibly. Anything could be +/- 0.5 at this point as the whole scale is still under consideration. Maybe a small handful could be off by more than +/- 0.5. Im still in progress, tweaking (but not twerking Laughing ) around with it.

Re: Unit Structures .. thats perfectly fine as everyone has different experiential histories and usually some personal biases, but obviously Unit Structures is much more off the beaten path than those others: structurally, emotionally etc. As youve expressed in your last paragraph.
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AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: Oregon, USA

#233 | Posted: 04/14/2019 19:56 | Post subject: Reply with quote
AfterHours wrote:
mianfei wrote:
AfterHours wrote:
Further...

Some more points to think with:

-This current challenge ratings scale is still in its earlier stages of development so I do want to reiterate that I am not necessarily dismissing your suggestions, but that I will consider them upon any revisits of those works. The only one that I would probably dismiss outright is Spleen and Ideal being "far too low". Maybe a 4.5 or 5, but most of it is pretty accessible especially after its initial tracks. It's not going to get much higher than that when alike, but more challenging works like Dead Magic and Desertshore, or (instrumentally or in terms of ethos, emotionality) Irrlicht, Popol Vuh, Black Tape for a Blue Girl, offer more difficult content.

-Yeti very well could be 6 or 6.5. When I Was A Boy is a very tough one, so I might agree with you (maybe 6 or 6.5) ... it finds a strange balance between accessible and avant-garde (in some ways, like Kate Bush's better albums)

-The truly challenging albums (relative to the whole scale, all music) is a threshold crossed at roughly "5.0" (and starts taking shape around 3.5 or 4) so try not to think of 5 as an "easy" score just because it's only 1/2 way to a 10. Remember I am rating them relative to the Trout Mask Replicas and Twin Infinitives of the world ... and in Jazz, perhaps Anthony Braxton's Sax Improvisations Series F and Cecil Taylor's Unit Structures and Sun Ra's Atlantis ... or in Classical the likes of Wagner's most challenging works or Morton Feldmen, Elliot Carter and so forth ...
Thanks for your prompt reply – I meant to reply much earlier but was on a restricted computer in a public library when I made my original attempt!

If what you are saying about Spleen and Ideal is true, it would imply that all the other artists mentioned alongside it would need to have their challenge factor increased somewhat. Personal experience with them is very limited but what I do know about Popol Vuh certainly supports the contention of my preceding sentence.

For what it’s worth, I have bought and listened to Unit Structures and did not find it so difficult as you are suggesting. It does seem to me that I would find Irrlicht or Black Tape for a Blue Girl more challenging than Cecil Taylor.

I often think the reason for these differences relates to background. I am well aware that whereas most people who get to listen to these avant-garde music works lived their entire life in inner city academic communities. However, I lived my childhood in quiet, highly conservative, low-density Melbourne suburbs wholly closed off from cutting-edge musical trends, and like to believe that this influence from my childhood shapes how I experience listening even 22 years after leaving such an environment. What I have often thought to be the case is that to reach audiences in such low-density environments as suburban Australia (some rural areas in Asia and tropical mountain are more densely populated than Australian outer suburbs) leads to a focus on loudness, humour or sparse production to make songs as catchy as possible – it is striking how catchy the songs of leading Australian pop groups were when I was a teenager.


Re: all others challenge rating rising along with Spleen & Ideal ... Yes, possibly. Anything could be +/- 0.5 at this point as the whole scale is still under consideration. Maybe a small handful could be off by more than +/- 0.5. Im still in progress, tweaking (but not twerking Laughing ) around with it.

Re: Unit Structures .. thats perfectly fine as everyone has different experiential histories and usually some personal biases, but obviously Unit Structures is much more off the beaten path than those others: structurally, emotionally etc. As youve expressed in your last paragraph.


I did go back through some of those albums you mentioned and revised the ratings of some, each by +/- 0.5.

Additionally, I added "+" or "-" symbols to the left of the albums I am considering giving a higher or lower challenge rating to at this time. These are not necessarily going to happen in each or even a majority of cases, but just means those in particular need further consideration and I am leaning slightly in that direction (towards a higher rating = "+" ... towards an easier rating = "-") I've only done this from the lower ratings through 5.5 so far.

I also added a sample of challenge ratings of 0 through 2.0 atop the list, just to give an idea of where it starts and how it progresses so I can keep the whole list as accurate as possible.
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AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: Oregon, USA

#234 | Posted: 04/23/2019 21:41 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Now that Scaruffi has rated all his Jazz rankings from 1950s - Present, I decided to see how closely my own ratings matched his, in all the cases where we both rated Jazz albums.

Keep in mind that this is 139 Jazz albums rated in advance of his, the biggest sample size of his updates I've ever encountered all at once.

On My Criteria page I state:

"In viewing my lists, it should come as no surprise that Piero Scaruffi is responsible, through his site, for helping me discover many of my selections. Primarily, I should thank him for introducing me to several of my “Greatest Rock” and “Greatest Jazz” selections. He has introduced me to quite a few of my "Greatest Films" and "Greatest Paintings" selections as well (though I've also returned some of the favor in this regard). Also, he has introduced me to some of my “Greatest Classical” selections. I strongly recommend his site for those seeking similar experiences in art that I’ve described throughout this page: http://www.scaruffi.com/. My “Greatest Rock Albums” selections are the most similar to his of all of my lists. For what it's worth, this came about gradually over time and did not start off this way. My Jazz choices share a strong resemblance too, though as he has not rated most of his, it is unclear just how close they are to his overall order and ratings. Similarly, for my Classical, Film and Visual Art/Paintings lists. Overall, I estimate that I agree with him closely on approximately 80% of our alike selections. This is pretty much the same even when I happen to rate a work before he does. I don’t know for sure why this is, except I must assume we have a very similar criteria."

So, how true did this turn out in such a huge sample size all at once? I knew as soon as I looked over his updates that the Jazz matches wouldn't be quite as close as my Rock ones, but it certainly wasn't far off. And, as expected they matched very proportional to how familiar I was with the work (as I become more familiar with the work, on average, my rating gets closer and closer to Scaruffi's).

1950s

SAME RATING:
Charles Mingus Pithecanthropus Erectus (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Ornette Coleman: The Shape of Jazz To Come (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Miles Davis: Birth of the Cool (1950) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Sonny Rollins: Saxophone Colossus (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Sonny Rollins: Freedom Suite (1958) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Charles Mingus: Blues and Roots (1959) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Jimmy Giuffre: Western Suite (1958) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Sun Ra: Jazz in Silhouette (1958) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Art Blakey: Orgy In Rhythm (1957) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Yusef Lateef: Jazz Mood (1957) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Herbie Nichols: The Third World (1955) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Miles Davis: Round About Midnight (1956) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7/10]
Dave Brubeck: Time Out (1959) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7/10]
Frank Sinatra: Songs for Young Lovers (1955) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7/10]

VERY CLOSE –DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Thelonious Monk: Brilliant Corners (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time until recently…]
Miles Davis: Kind Of Blue (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time until recently…]
Charles Mingus: Mingus Ah Um (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time]
Charles Mingus: Tijuana Moods (1957) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
John Coltrane: Blue Train (1957) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

DIFFERENTIAL 0.5 OR MORE:
George Russell: New York New York (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time]
Stan Kenton: City of Glass (1951) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time until recently…]
Modern Jazz Quartet: Fontessa (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
John Coltrane: Giant Steps (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

1950s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 19/23 = 83%


1960s

SAME RATING:
Cecil Taylor: Unit Structures (1966) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9/10]
Miles Davis: Bitches Brew (1969) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9/10]
Ornette Coleman: Free Jazz (1960) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Sun Ra: The Magic City (1965) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Gary Burton: A Genuine Tong Funeral (1967) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Sam Rivers: Dimensions And Extensions (1967) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Max Roach: Freedom Now Suite (1960) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Roscoe Mitchell: Sound (1966) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Don Cherry: Symphony For Improvisers (1966) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Charles Mingus: Presents (1960) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Miles Davis: In a Silent Way (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Marion Brown: Quartet (1965) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Don Cherry: Complete Communion (1965) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Eric Dolphy: Far Cry (1960) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
John Coltrane: Impressions (1961) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Sun Ra: Cosmic Tones For Mental Therapy (1963) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Archie Shepp: Mama Too Tight (1966) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
George Russell: Electronic Sonata For Souls Loved By Nature (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: Reese and the Smooth Ones (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Andrew Hill: Point of Departure (1964) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Tina Brooks: True Blue (1960) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE –DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Charles Mingus: The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady (1963) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9.5/10]
John Coltrane: A Love Supreme (1964) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9.5/10 … Note that I’ve also had it as a 9/10 a couple times]
Albert Ayler: Spiritual Unity (1964) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I’ve also had it at 9 off and on numerous times…]
John Coltrane: Ascension (1965) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 9/10 … Note that this might actually be rated a 9 by Scaruffi due to its higher ranking above other 9’s…]
Michael Mantler: Jazz Composers' Orchestra (1968) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 9/10 … Note that this might actually be rated a 9 by Scaruffi due to its higher ranking above other 9’s…]
Eric Dolphy: Out to Lunch (1964) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had this as a 8 until pretty recently]
Pharoah Sanders: Karma (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had this as a 8 until pretty recently]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: People in Sorrow (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Cecil Taylor: Conquistador (1966) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Miles Davis: Filles de Kilimanjaro (1968) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Peter Broetzmann: Machine Gun (1968) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Charles Mingus: Oh Yeah (1961) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Note that I also had this as a 7.5 until pretty recently]
Bill Evans: Explorations (1961) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Note that I also had this as a 7.5 until pretty recently]

DIFFERENTIAL 0.5 OR MORE:
Anthony Braxton: For Alto (1969) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Sun Ra: Atlantis (1967) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Don Cherry: Mu (1969) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Charlie Haden: Liberation Music Orchestra (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that this might actually be rated 8.5 by Scaruffi due to its ranking above higher 8s and 8.5s]
Ornette Coleman: Ornette (1961) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Albert Ayler: New York Eye And Ear Control (1964) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Jackie McLean: New and Old Gospel (1967) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]

1960s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 35/42 = 83%

1970s

SAME RATING:
Paul Bley: Improvisie (1970) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Marion Brown: Afternoon of a Georgia Faun (1970) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Alice Coltrane: Ptah The El Daoud (1970) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Dave Holland: Conference of the Birds (1972) [Scaruffi: 8.5 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Paul Bley: Dual Unity (1971) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Weather Report: I Sing the Body Electric (1972) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Jeanne Lee: Conspiracy (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8/10]
James Ulmer: Revealing (1977) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Chick Corea: Light as a Feather (1972) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Miles Davis: On The Corner (1972) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Anthony Braxton: Saxophone Improvisations (1972) [Scaruffi: 9/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that I've also had this as a 9 numerous times]
Carla Bley: Escalator Over The Hill (1971) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 9/10]
Keith Jarrett: Survivors Suite (1976) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Sam Rivers: Streams (1973) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Sam Rivers: Crystals (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Cecil Taylor: Silent Tongues (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Steve Lacy: Saxophone Special (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
McCoy Tyner: Extensions (1970) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
Charles Mingus: Let My Children Hear Music (1971) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
McCoy Tyner: Sahara (1972) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: Les Stances A Sophie (1970) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
Revolutionary Ensemble: The Psyche (1975) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Air: Air Raid (1976) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Sonny Sharrock: Monkey-Pockie-Boo (1970) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Mahavishnu Orchestra: The Inner Mounting Flame (1971) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Carla Bley: Tropic Appetites (1973) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Chick Corea: Return To Forever (1972) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Rova Saxophone Quartet: Removal of Secrecy (1979) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 7.5/10
Roland Kirk: Prepare Thyself To Deal With A Miracle (1973) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Leroy Jenkins: Legend of Ai Glatson (1978) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8 or 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8s and among other 8.5s]
Keith Jarrett: The Koeln Concert (1975) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8 due to its higher ranking than other 8s]
Air: Air Time (1977) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: With Fontella Bass (1970) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Alice Coltrane: Journey in Satchidananda (1970) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Pharoah Sanders: Black Unity (1971) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 8/10]

1970s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 27/35 = 77%

1980s

SAME RATING:
Anthony Davis: Episteme (1981) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Anthony Davis: Hemispheres (1983) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Bill Frisell: Before We Were Born (1988) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Tim Berne: Fractured Fairy Tales (1989) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Anthony Davis: Undine (1987) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Borbetomagus: Barbed Wire Maggot (1983) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Pat Metheny: As Falls Wichita So Falls Wichita (1980) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Paul Motian: Psalm (1981) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Anthony Davis: Variations In Dream-time (1982) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 9/10]
Anthony Davis: Lady of the Mirrors (1980) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
John Zorn: Cobra (1986) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Scaruffi may actually rate this 8/10 due to its ranking above other 8s]
Henry Threadgill: Easily Slip Into Another World (1987) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Scaruffi may actually rate this 8/10 due to its ranking above other 8s]

1980s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 8/12 = 67%

1990s

SAME RATING:
Franz Koglmann: The Use of Memory (1990) [Scaruffi: 7.5 … AH: 7.5/10]
Matthew Shipp: Circular Temple (1990) [Scaruffi: 7.5 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Guillermo Gregorio: Approximately (1996) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Franz Koglmann: Cantos I-IV (1993) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Jane Ira Bloom: Art & Aviation (1992) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Bill Dixon: Vade Mecum (1993) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Jane Ira Bloom: The Red Quartets (1999) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Wayne Horvitz: Bring Your Camera (1991) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Dave Douglas: In Our Lifetime (1995) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Michael Formanek: Nature of the Beast (1996) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Ivo Perelman: Seeds, Visions and Counterpoint (1996) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 9/10]
Myra Melford: Even the Sounds Shine (1994) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 9/10]
Marcus Roberts: Blues for the New Millennium (1997) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

1990s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 10/13 = 77%

2000s

SAME RATING:
Spring Heel Jack: Disappeared [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Marty Ehrlich: The Long View [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Brad Mehidau: Largo [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Jane Ira Bloom: Chasing Paint (2002) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Franz Koglmann: Fear Death By Water (2003) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Denman Maroney: Fluxations [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Spring Heel Jack: Amassed [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Nels Cline: Instrumentals [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Jason Moran: The Bandwagon [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Hiromi: Another Mind [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Vijay Iyer: Blood Sutra [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Spring Heel Jack: Live [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Scott Rosenberg: Creative Orchestra Music [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

2000s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 4/13 = 31%

2010s

SAME RATING:
Sarah Manning: Harmonious Creature (2014) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]

2010s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 1/1 = 100%

OVERALL – SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE -- ALL DECADES: 104/139 = 75%
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AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: Oregon, USA

#235 | Posted: 05/15/2019 20:37 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Added a review for:



Go to the My Criteria page (1st page) and scroll down until you reach the "Reviews/Analysis/Key Insights" section (3rd post down).

This "review" is more just "key notes/insights" (note: when I add asterisks to each phrase/paragraph in the review that means it's more or less a rough draft, not one of the more thorough analyses/reviews, and it's only intended to provide some "key insights/notes". It is likely incomplete, to possibly be added to or finished later...)
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Facetious



Gender: Male
Age: 19
Location: Somewhere you've never been
Pakistan

#236 | Posted: 05/16/2019 14:29 | Post subject: Reply with quote
AfterHours wrote:
Now that Scaruffi has rated all his Jazz rankings from 1950s - Present, I decided to see how closely my own ratings matched his, in all the cases where we both rated Jazz albums.

Keep in mind that this is 139 Jazz albums rated in advance of his, the biggest sample size of his updates I've ever encountered all at once.

On My Criteria page I state:

"In viewing my lists, it should come as no surprise that Piero Scaruffi is responsible, through his site, for helping me discover many of my selections. Primarily, I should thank him for introducing me to several of my “Greatest Rock” and “Greatest Jazz” selections. He has introduced me to quite a few of my "Greatest Films" and "Greatest Paintings" selections as well (though I've also returned some of the favor in this regard). Also, he has introduced me to some of my “Greatest Classical” selections. I strongly recommend his site for those seeking similar experiences in art that I’ve described throughout this page: http://www.scaruffi.com/. My “Greatest Rock Albums” selections are the most similar to his of all of my lists. For what it's worth, this came about gradually over time and did not start off this way. My Jazz choices share a strong resemblance too, though as he has not rated most of his, it is unclear just how close they are to his overall order and ratings. Similarly, for my Classical, Film and Visual Art/Paintings lists. Overall, I estimate that I agree with him closely on approximately 80% of our alike selections. This is pretty much the same even when I happen to rate a work before he does. I don’t know for sure why this is, except I must assume we have a very similar criteria."

So, how true did this turn out in such a huge sample size all at once? I knew as soon as I looked over his updates that the Jazz matches wouldn't be quite as close as my Rock ones, but it certainly wasn't far off. And, as expected they matched very proportional to how familiar I was with the work (as I become more familiar with the work, on average, my rating gets closer and closer to Scaruffi's).

1950s

SAME RATING:
Charles Mingus Pithecanthropus Erectus (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Ornette Coleman: The Shape of Jazz To Come (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Miles Davis: Birth of the Cool (1950) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Sonny Rollins: Saxophone Colossus (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Sonny Rollins: Freedom Suite (1958) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Charles Mingus: Blues and Roots (1959) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Jimmy Giuffre: Western Suite (1958) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Sun Ra: Jazz in Silhouette (1958) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Art Blakey: Orgy In Rhythm (1957) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Yusef Lateef: Jazz Mood (1957) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Herbie Nichols: The Third World (1955) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Miles Davis: Round About Midnight (1956) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7/10]
Dave Brubeck: Time Out (1959) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7/10]
Frank Sinatra: Songs for Young Lovers (1955) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7/10]

VERY CLOSE –DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Thelonious Monk: Brilliant Corners (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time until recently…]
Miles Davis: Kind Of Blue (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time until recently…]
Charles Mingus: Mingus Ah Um (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time]
Charles Mingus: Tijuana Moods (1957) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
John Coltrane: Blue Train (1957) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

DIFFERENTIAL 0.5 OR MORE:
George Russell: New York New York (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time]
Stan Kenton: City of Glass (1951) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time until recently…]
Modern Jazz Quartet: Fontessa (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
John Coltrane: Giant Steps (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

1950s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 19/23 = 83%


1960s

SAME RATING:
Cecil Taylor: Unit Structures (1966) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9/10]
Miles Davis: Bitches Brew (1969) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9/10]
Ornette Coleman: Free Jazz (1960) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Sun Ra: The Magic City (1965) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Gary Burton: A Genuine Tong Funeral (1967) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Sam Rivers: Dimensions And Extensions (1967) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Max Roach: Freedom Now Suite (1960) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Roscoe Mitchell: Sound (1966) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Don Cherry: Symphony For Improvisers (1966) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Charles Mingus: Presents (1960) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Miles Davis: In a Silent Way (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Marion Brown: Quartet (1965) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Don Cherry: Complete Communion (1965) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Eric Dolphy: Far Cry (1960) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
John Coltrane: Impressions (1961) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Sun Ra: Cosmic Tones For Mental Therapy (1963) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Archie Shepp: Mama Too Tight (1966) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
George Russell: Electronic Sonata For Souls Loved By Nature (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: Reese and the Smooth Ones (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Andrew Hill: Point of Departure (1964) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Tina Brooks: True Blue (1960) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE –DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Charles Mingus: The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady (1963) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9.5/10]
John Coltrane: A Love Supreme (1964) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9.5/10 … Note that I’ve also had it as a 9/10 a couple times]
Albert Ayler: Spiritual Unity (1964) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I’ve also had it at 9 off and on numerous times…]
John Coltrane: Ascension (1965) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 9/10 … Note that this might actually be rated a 9 by Scaruffi due to its higher ranking above other 9’s…]
Michael Mantler: Jazz Composers' Orchestra (1968) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 9/10 … Note that this might actually be rated a 9 by Scaruffi due to its higher ranking above other 9’s…]
Eric Dolphy: Out to Lunch (1964) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had this as a 8 until pretty recently]
Pharoah Sanders: Karma (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had this as a 8 until pretty recently]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: People in Sorrow (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Cecil Taylor: Conquistador (1966) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Miles Davis: Filles de Kilimanjaro (1968) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Peter Broetzmann: Machine Gun (1968) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Charles Mingus: Oh Yeah (1961) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Note that I also had this as a 7.5 until pretty recently]
Bill Evans: Explorations (1961) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Note that I also had this as a 7.5 until pretty recently]

DIFFERENTIAL 0.5 OR MORE:
Anthony Braxton: For Alto (1969) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Sun Ra: Atlantis (1967) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Don Cherry: Mu (1969) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Charlie Haden: Liberation Music Orchestra (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that this might actually be rated 8.5 by Scaruffi due to its ranking above higher 8s and 8.5s]
Ornette Coleman: Ornette (1961) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Albert Ayler: New York Eye And Ear Control (1964) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Jackie McLean: New and Old Gospel (1967) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]

1960s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 35/42 = 83%

1970s

SAME RATING:
Paul Bley: Improvisie (1970) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Marion Brown: Afternoon of a Georgia Faun (1970) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Alice Coltrane: Ptah The El Daoud (1970) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Dave Holland: Conference of the Birds (1972) [Scaruffi: 8.5 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Paul Bley: Dual Unity (1971) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Weather Report: I Sing the Body Electric (1972) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Jeanne Lee: Conspiracy (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8/10]
James Ulmer: Revealing (1977) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Chick Corea: Light as a Feather (1972) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Miles Davis: On The Corner (1972) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Anthony Braxton: Saxophone Improvisations (1972) [Scaruffi: 9/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that I've also had this as a 9 numerous times]
Carla Bley: Escalator Over The Hill (1971) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 9/10]
Keith Jarrett: Survivors Suite (1976) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Sam Rivers: Streams (1973) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Sam Rivers: Crystals (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Cecil Taylor: Silent Tongues (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Steve Lacy: Saxophone Special (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
McCoy Tyner: Extensions (1970) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
Charles Mingus: Let My Children Hear Music (1971) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
McCoy Tyner: Sahara (1972) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: Les Stances A Sophie (1970) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
Revolutionary Ensemble: The Psyche (1975) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Air: Air Raid (1976) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Sonny Sharrock: Monkey-Pockie-Boo (1970) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Mahavishnu Orchestra: The Inner Mounting Flame (1971) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Carla Bley: Tropic Appetites (1973) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Chick Corea: Return To Forever (1972) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Rova Saxophone Quartet: Removal of Secrecy (1979) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 7.5/10
Roland Kirk: Prepare Thyself To Deal With A Miracle (1973) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Leroy Jenkins: Legend of Ai Glatson (1978) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8 or 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8s and among other 8.5s]
Keith Jarrett: The Koeln Concert (1975) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8 due to its higher ranking than other 8s]
Air: Air Time (1977) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: With Fontella Bass (1970) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Alice Coltrane: Journey in Satchidananda (1970) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Pharoah Sanders: Black Unity (1971) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 8/10]

1970s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 27/35 = 77%

1980s

SAME RATING:
Anthony Davis: Episteme (1981) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Anthony Davis: Hemispheres (1983) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Bill Frisell: Before We Were Born (1988) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Tim Berne: Fractured Fairy Tales (1989) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Anthony Davis: Undine (1987) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Borbetomagus: Barbed Wire Maggot (1983) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Pat Metheny: As Falls Wichita So Falls Wichita (1980) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Paul Motian: Psalm (1981) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Anthony Davis: Variations In Dream-time (1982) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 9/10]
Anthony Davis: Lady of the Mirrors (1980) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
John Zorn: Cobra (1986) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Scaruffi may actually rate this 8/10 due to its ranking above other 8s]
Henry Threadgill: Easily Slip Into Another World (1987) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Scaruffi may actually rate this 8/10 due to its ranking above other 8s]

1980s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 8/12 = 67%

1990s

SAME RATING:
Franz Koglmann: The Use of Memory (1990) [Scaruffi: 7.5 … AH: 7.5/10]
Matthew Shipp: Circular Temple (1990) [Scaruffi: 7.5 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Guillermo Gregorio: Approximately (1996) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Franz Koglmann: Cantos I-IV (1993) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Jane Ira Bloom: Art & Aviation (1992) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Bill Dixon: Vade Mecum (1993) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Jane Ira Bloom: The Red Quartets (1999) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Wayne Horvitz: Bring Your Camera (1991) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Dave Douglas: In Our Lifetime (1995) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Michael Formanek: Nature of the Beast (1996) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Ivo Perelman: Seeds, Visions and Counterpoint (1996) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 9/10]
Myra Melford: Even the Sounds Shine (1994) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 9/10]
Marcus Roberts: Blues for the New Millennium (1997) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

1990s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 10/13 = 77%

2000s

SAME RATING:
Spring Heel Jack: Disappeared [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Marty Ehrlich: The Long View [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Brad Mehidau: Largo [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Jane Ira Bloom: Chasing Paint (2002) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Franz Koglmann: Fear Death By Water (2003) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Denman Maroney: Fluxations [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Spring Heel Jack: Amassed [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Nels Cline: Instrumentals [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Jason Moran: The Bandwagon [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Hiromi: Another Mind [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Vijay Iyer: Blood Sutra [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Spring Heel Jack: Live [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Scott Rosenberg: Creative Orchestra Music [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

2000s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 4/13 = 31%

2010s

SAME RATING:
Sarah Manning: Harmonious Creature (2014) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]

2010s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 1/1 = 100%

OVERALL – SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE -- ALL DECADES: 104/139 = 75%


No 9.5s in jazz? That's weird.
Also, as per the new ratings, a Kenny G album is Scaruffi-approved now! Well, it already was, but now we know it's approved to the same extent that Pet Sounds, OK Computer, Sgt. Pepper, Abbey Road, etc are. Worst 7/10 of all time? (Even Significant Other was better.)
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Kool Keith Sweat
skronkist



Location: Tejas
United States

#237 | Posted: 05/16/2019 15:13 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Facetious wrote:
No 9.5s in jazz? That's weird.


Scaruffi isn't a fan of improvisation
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Facetious



Gender: Male
Age: 19
Location: Somewhere you've never been
Pakistan

#238 | Posted: 05/16/2019 21:18 | Post subject: Reply with quote
What do you rate all the LoTR films btw? And what about the trilogy as a whole?
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AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: Oregon, USA

#239 | Posted: 05/16/2019 22:34 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Facetious wrote:
AfterHours wrote:
Now that Scaruffi has rated all his Jazz rankings from 1950s - Present, I decided to see how closely my own ratings matched his, in all the cases where we both rated Jazz albums.

Keep in mind that this is 139 Jazz albums rated in advance of his, the biggest sample size of his updates I've ever encountered all at once.

On My Criteria page I state:

"In viewing my lists, it should come as no surprise that Piero Scaruffi is responsible, through his site, for helping me discover many of my selections. Primarily, I should thank him for introducing me to several of my “Greatest Rock” and “Greatest Jazz” selections. He has introduced me to quite a few of my "Greatest Films" and "Greatest Paintings" selections as well (though I've also returned some of the favor in this regard). Also, he has introduced me to some of my “Greatest Classical” selections. I strongly recommend his site for those seeking similar experiences in art that I’ve described throughout this page: http://www.scaruffi.com/. My “Greatest Rock Albums” selections are the most similar to his of all of my lists. For what it's worth, this came about gradually over time and did not start off this way. My Jazz choices share a strong resemblance too, though as he has not rated most of his, it is unclear just how close they are to his overall order and ratings. Similarly, for my Classical, Film and Visual Art/Paintings lists. Overall, I estimate that I agree with him closely on approximately 80% of our alike selections. This is pretty much the same even when I happen to rate a work before he does. I don’t know for sure why this is, except I must assume we have a very similar criteria."

So, how true did this turn out in such a huge sample size all at once? I knew as soon as I looked over his updates that the Jazz matches wouldn't be quite as close as my Rock ones, but it certainly wasn't far off. And, as expected they matched very proportional to how familiar I was with the work (as I become more familiar with the work, on average, my rating gets closer and closer to Scaruffi's).

1950s

SAME RATING:
Charles Mingus Pithecanthropus Erectus (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Ornette Coleman: The Shape of Jazz To Come (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Miles Davis: Birth of the Cool (1950) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Sonny Rollins: Saxophone Colossus (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Sonny Rollins: Freedom Suite (1958) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Charles Mingus: Blues and Roots (1959) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Jimmy Giuffre: Western Suite (1958) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Sun Ra: Jazz in Silhouette (1958) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Art Blakey: Orgy In Rhythm (1957) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Yusef Lateef: Jazz Mood (1957) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Herbie Nichols: The Third World (1955) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Miles Davis: Round About Midnight (1956) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7/10]
Dave Brubeck: Time Out (1959) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7/10]
Frank Sinatra: Songs for Young Lovers (1955) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7/10]

VERY CLOSE –DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Thelonious Monk: Brilliant Corners (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time until recently…]
Miles Davis: Kind Of Blue (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time until recently…]
Charles Mingus: Mingus Ah Um (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time]
Charles Mingus: Tijuana Moods (1957) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
John Coltrane: Blue Train (1957) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

DIFFERENTIAL 0.5 OR MORE:
George Russell: New York New York (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time]
Stan Kenton: City of Glass (1951) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time until recently…]
Modern Jazz Quartet: Fontessa (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
John Coltrane: Giant Steps (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

1950s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 19/23 = 83%


1960s

SAME RATING:
Cecil Taylor: Unit Structures (1966) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9/10]
Miles Davis: Bitches Brew (1969) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9/10]
Ornette Coleman: Free Jazz (1960) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Sun Ra: The Magic City (1965) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Gary Burton: A Genuine Tong Funeral (1967) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Sam Rivers: Dimensions And Extensions (1967) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Max Roach: Freedom Now Suite (1960) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Roscoe Mitchell: Sound (1966) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Don Cherry: Symphony For Improvisers (1966) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Charles Mingus: Presents (1960) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Miles Davis: In a Silent Way (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Marion Brown: Quartet (1965) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Don Cherry: Complete Communion (1965) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Eric Dolphy: Far Cry (1960) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
John Coltrane: Impressions (1961) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Sun Ra: Cosmic Tones For Mental Therapy (1963) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Archie Shepp: Mama Too Tight (1966) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
George Russell: Electronic Sonata For Souls Loved By Nature (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: Reese and the Smooth Ones (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Andrew Hill: Point of Departure (1964) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Tina Brooks: True Blue (1960) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE –DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Charles Mingus: The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady (1963) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9.5/10]
John Coltrane: A Love Supreme (1964) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9.5/10 … Note that I’ve also had it as a 9/10 a couple times]
Albert Ayler: Spiritual Unity (1964) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I’ve also had it at 9 off and on numerous times…]
John Coltrane: Ascension (1965) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 9/10 … Note that this might actually be rated a 9 by Scaruffi due to its higher ranking above other 9’s…]
Michael Mantler: Jazz Composers' Orchestra (1968) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 9/10 … Note that this might actually be rated a 9 by Scaruffi due to its higher ranking above other 9’s…]
Eric Dolphy: Out to Lunch (1964) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had this as a 8 until pretty recently]
Pharoah Sanders: Karma (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had this as a 8 until pretty recently]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: People in Sorrow (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Cecil Taylor: Conquistador (1966) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Miles Davis: Filles de Kilimanjaro (1968) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Peter Broetzmann: Machine Gun (1968) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Charles Mingus: Oh Yeah (1961) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Note that I also had this as a 7.5 until pretty recently]
Bill Evans: Explorations (1961) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Note that I also had this as a 7.5 until pretty recently]

DIFFERENTIAL 0.5 OR MORE:
Anthony Braxton: For Alto (1969) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Sun Ra: Atlantis (1967) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Don Cherry: Mu (1969) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Charlie Haden: Liberation Music Orchestra (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that this might actually be rated 8.5 by Scaruffi due to its ranking above higher 8s and 8.5s]
Ornette Coleman: Ornette (1961) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Albert Ayler: New York Eye And Ear Control (1964) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Jackie McLean: New and Old Gospel (1967) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]

1960s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 35/42 = 83%

1970s

SAME RATING:
Paul Bley: Improvisie (1970) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Marion Brown: Afternoon of a Georgia Faun (1970) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Alice Coltrane: Ptah The El Daoud (1970) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Dave Holland: Conference of the Birds (1972) [Scaruffi: 8.5 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Paul Bley: Dual Unity (1971) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Weather Report: I Sing the Body Electric (1972) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Jeanne Lee: Conspiracy (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8/10]
James Ulmer: Revealing (1977) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Chick Corea: Light as a Feather (1972) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Miles Davis: On The Corner (1972) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Anthony Braxton: Saxophone Improvisations (1972) [Scaruffi: 9/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that I've also had this as a 9 numerous times]
Carla Bley: Escalator Over The Hill (1971) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 9/10]
Keith Jarrett: Survivors Suite (1976) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Sam Rivers: Streams (1973) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Sam Rivers: Crystals (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Cecil Taylor: Silent Tongues (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Steve Lacy: Saxophone Special (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
McCoy Tyner: Extensions (1970) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
Charles Mingus: Let My Children Hear Music (1971) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
McCoy Tyner: Sahara (1972) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: Les Stances A Sophie (1970) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
Revolutionary Ensemble: The Psyche (1975) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Air: Air Raid (1976) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Sonny Sharrock: Monkey-Pockie-Boo (1970) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Mahavishnu Orchestra: The Inner Mounting Flame (1971) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Carla Bley: Tropic Appetites (1973) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Chick Corea: Return To Forever (1972) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Rova Saxophone Quartet: Removal of Secrecy (1979) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 7.5/10
Roland Kirk: Prepare Thyself To Deal With A Miracle (1973) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Leroy Jenkins: Legend of Ai Glatson (1978) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8 or 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8s and among other 8.5s]
Keith Jarrett: The Koeln Concert (1975) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8 due to its higher ranking than other 8s]
Air: Air Time (1977) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: With Fontella Bass (1970) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Alice Coltrane: Journey in Satchidananda (1970) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Pharoah Sanders: Black Unity (1971) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 8/10]

1970s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 27/35 = 77%

1980s

SAME RATING:
Anthony Davis: Episteme (1981) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Anthony Davis: Hemispheres (1983) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Bill Frisell: Before We Were Born (1988) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Tim Berne: Fractured Fairy Tales (1989) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Anthony Davis: Undine (1987) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Borbetomagus: Barbed Wire Maggot (1983) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Pat Metheny: As Falls Wichita So Falls Wichita (1980) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Paul Motian: Psalm (1981) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Anthony Davis: Variations In Dream-time (1982) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 9/10]
Anthony Davis: Lady of the Mirrors (1980) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
John Zorn: Cobra (1986) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Scaruffi may actually rate this 8/10 due to its ranking above other 8s]
Henry Threadgill: Easily Slip Into Another World (1987) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Scaruffi may actually rate this 8/10 due to its ranking above other 8s]

1980s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 8/12 = 67%

1990s

SAME RATING:
Franz Koglmann: The Use of Memory (1990) [Scaruffi: 7.5 … AH: 7.5/10]
Matthew Shipp: Circular Temple (1990) [Scaruffi: 7.5 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Guillermo Gregorio: Approximately (1996) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Franz Koglmann: Cantos I-IV (1993) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Jane Ira Bloom: Art & Aviation (1992) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Bill Dixon: Vade Mecum (1993) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Jane Ira Bloom: The Red Quartets (1999) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Wayne Horvitz: Bring Your Camera (1991) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Dave Douglas: In Our Lifetime (1995) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Michael Formanek: Nature of the Beast (1996) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Ivo Perelman: Seeds, Visions and Counterpoint (1996) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 9/10]
Myra Melford: Even the Sounds Shine (1994) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 9/10]
Marcus Roberts: Blues for the New Millennium (1997) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

1990s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 10/13 = 77%

2000s

SAME RATING:
Spring Heel Jack: Disappeared [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Marty Ehrlich: The Long View [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Brad Mehidau: Largo [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Jane Ira Bloom: Chasing Paint (2002) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Franz Koglmann: Fear Death By Water (2003) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Denman Maroney: Fluxations [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Spring Heel Jack: Amassed [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Nels Cline: Instrumentals [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Jason Moran: The Bandwagon [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Hiromi: Another Mind [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Vijay Iyer: Blood Sutra [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Spring Heel Jack: Live [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Scott Rosenberg: Creative Orchestra Music [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

2000s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 4/13 = 31%

2010s

SAME RATING:
Sarah Manning: Harmonious Creature (2014) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]

2010s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 1/1 = 100%

OVERALL – SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE -- ALL DECADES: 104/139 = 75%


No 9.5s in jazz? That's weird.
Also, as per the new ratings, a Kenny G album is Scaruffi-approved now! Well, it already was, but now we know it's approved to the same extent that Pet Sounds, OK Computer, Sgt. Pepper, Abbey Road, etc are. Worst 7/10 of all time? (Even Significant Other was better.)


I'm not sure which albums and which tracks of Kenny G I've heard as it's been several years, but from memory, they were pretty cookie cutter. Maybe earlier in his career he was more creatively inspired? Can Significant Other be "topped"? Laughing

No 9.5s in Jazz is not especially surprising. The Rock ones have been gradually upending them (very gradually) by my own estimation for quite a while, though I'm not sure about Faust... I've discussed the possibility it would turn out that way from Scaruffosaurus Rex on listology before, by PM, etc ... if I remember correctly, I think I also mentioned it on my BEA chart page a year ago or sth like that, but maybe not ... hard to remember the where or when of passing comments like that. Anyway, I reckon they're both "high" 9s ... just goes to illustrate how rare those 9.5s are. Neither Black Saint or ALS are as "visionary" as Faust/Rock Bottom/Trout Mask (or any of the highest Classical) so it's not hard to see where he's likely coming from.
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AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: Oregon, USA

#240 | Posted: 05/16/2019 22:41 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
Scaruffi isn't a fan of improvisation


That could be a factor. Though, in his favor, it's hard to think of any improvisation that has reached the visionary expressiveness of the greatest masterpieces of the Beethoven's, Mahler's, Wagner's, etc of history... even in a parallel sense by purely/mostly jazz means.

Although, you may be the most knowledgeable person of improvised jazz I've ever seen, so if you've discovered otherwise, my ears would perk up...
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