My Criteria For Art

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

  • #241
  • Posted: 05/16/2019 22:50
  • Post subject:
  • Reply with quote
Facetious wrote:
What do you rate all the LoTR films btw? And what about the trilogy as a whole?


I think I used to rate the 1st and 3rd one as high as 6.5-7. But my most recent re-evals of film + other arts tells me that probably: (1) 6 or 6.5 (2) 5.5 or 6 (3) 6 or 6.5.

My hunch is that I would rate them like 7.5 as a whole but that's just a hunch as I haven't seen the whole series since roughly 2005...
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings
Back to top
  • Visit poster's website
  • View user's profile
  • Send private message
AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

  • #242
  • Posted: 05/17/2019 20:56
  • Post subject:
  • Reply with quote
AfterHours wrote:
Facetious wrote:
AfterHours wrote:
Now that Scaruffi has rated all his Jazz rankings from 1950s - Present, I decided to see how closely my own ratings matched his, in all the cases where we both rated Jazz albums.

Keep in mind that this is 139 Jazz albums rated in advance of his, the biggest sample size of his updates I've ever encountered all at once.

On My Criteria page I state:

"In viewing my lists, it should come as no surprise that Piero Scaruffi is responsible, through his site, for helping me discover many of my selections. Primarily, I should thank him for introducing me to several of my “Greatest Rock” and “Greatest Jazz” selections. He has introduced me to quite a few of my "Greatest Films" and "Greatest Paintings" selections as well (though I've also returned some of the favor in this regard). Also, he has introduced me to some of my “Greatest Classical” selections. I strongly recommend his site for those seeking similar experiences in art that I’ve described throughout this page: http://www.scaruffi.com/. My “Greatest Rock Albums” selections are the most similar to his of all of my lists. For what it's worth, this came about gradually over time and did not start off this way. My Jazz choices share a strong resemblance too, though as he has not rated most of his, it is unclear just how close they are to his overall order and ratings. Similarly, for my Classical, Film and Visual Art/Paintings lists. Overall, I estimate that I agree with him closely on approximately 80% of our alike selections. This is pretty much the same even when I happen to rate a work before he does. I don’t know for sure why this is, except I must assume we have a very similar criteria."

So, how true did this turn out in such a huge sample size all at once? I knew as soon as I looked over his updates that the Jazz matches wouldn't be quite as close as my Rock ones, but it certainly wasn't far off. And, as expected they matched very proportional to how familiar I was with the work (as I become more familiar with the work, on average, my rating gets closer and closer to Scaruffi's).

1950s

SAME RATING:
Charles Mingus Pithecanthropus Erectus (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Ornette Coleman: The Shape of Jazz To Come (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Miles Davis: Birth of the Cool (1950) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Sonny Rollins: Saxophone Colossus (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Sonny Rollins: Freedom Suite (1958) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Charles Mingus: Blues and Roots (1959) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Jimmy Giuffre: Western Suite (1958) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Sun Ra: Jazz in Silhouette (1958) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Art Blakey: Orgy In Rhythm (1957) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Yusef Lateef: Jazz Mood (1957) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Herbie Nichols: The Third World (1955) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Miles Davis: Round About Midnight (1956) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7/10]
Dave Brubeck: Time Out (1959) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7/10]
Frank Sinatra: Songs for Young Lovers (1955) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7/10]

VERY CLOSE –DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Thelonious Monk: Brilliant Corners (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time until recently…]
Miles Davis: Kind Of Blue (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time until recently…]
Charles Mingus: Mingus Ah Um (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time]
Charles Mingus: Tijuana Moods (1957) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
John Coltrane: Blue Train (1957) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

DIFFERENTIAL 0.5 OR MORE:
George Russell: New York New York (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time]
Stan Kenton: City of Glass (1951) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had it at 8 for a long time until recently…]
Modern Jazz Quartet: Fontessa (1956) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
John Coltrane: Giant Steps (1959) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

1950s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 19/23 = 83%


1960s

SAME RATING:
Cecil Taylor: Unit Structures (1966) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9/10]
Miles Davis: Bitches Brew (1969) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9/10]
Ornette Coleman: Free Jazz (1960) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Sun Ra: The Magic City (1965) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Gary Burton: A Genuine Tong Funeral (1967) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Sam Rivers: Dimensions And Extensions (1967) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Max Roach: Freedom Now Suite (1960) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Roscoe Mitchell: Sound (1966) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Don Cherry: Symphony For Improvisers (1966) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Charles Mingus: Presents (1960) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Miles Davis: In a Silent Way (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Marion Brown: Quartet (1965) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Don Cherry: Complete Communion (1965) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Eric Dolphy: Far Cry (1960) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
John Coltrane: Impressions (1961) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Sun Ra: Cosmic Tones For Mental Therapy (1963) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Archie Shepp: Mama Too Tight (1966) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
George Russell: Electronic Sonata For Souls Loved By Nature (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: Reese and the Smooth Ones (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Andrew Hill: Point of Departure (1964) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Tina Brooks: True Blue (1960) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE –DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Charles Mingus: The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady (1963) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9.5/10]
John Coltrane: A Love Supreme (1964) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 9.5/10 … Note that I’ve also had it as a 9/10 a couple times]
Albert Ayler: Spiritual Unity (1964) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I’ve also had it at 9 off and on numerous times…]
John Coltrane: Ascension (1965) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 9/10 … Note that this might actually be rated a 9 by Scaruffi due to its higher ranking above other 9’s…]
Michael Mantler: Jazz Composers' Orchestra (1968) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 … AH: 9/10 … Note that this might actually be rated a 9 by Scaruffi due to its higher ranking above other 9’s…]
Eric Dolphy: Out to Lunch (1964) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had this as a 8 until pretty recently]
Pharoah Sanders: Karma (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that I also had this as a 8 until pretty recently]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: People in Sorrow (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Cecil Taylor: Conquistador (1966) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Miles Davis: Filles de Kilimanjaro (1968) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Peter Broetzmann: Machine Gun (1968) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Charles Mingus: Oh Yeah (1961) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Note that I also had this as a 7.5 until pretty recently]
Bill Evans: Explorations (1961) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Note that I also had this as a 7.5 until pretty recently]

DIFFERENTIAL 0.5 OR MORE:
Anthony Braxton: For Alto (1969) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Sun Ra: Atlantis (1967) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Don Cherry: Mu (1969) [Scaruffi: 9/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Charlie Haden: Liberation Music Orchestra (1969) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10 … Note that this might actually be rated 8.5 by Scaruffi due to its ranking above higher 8s and 8.5s]
Ornette Coleman: Ornette (1961) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 7.5/10]
Albert Ayler: New York Eye And Ear Control (1964) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Jackie McLean: New and Old Gospel (1967) [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]

1960s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 35/42 = 83%

1970s

SAME RATING:
Paul Bley: Improvisie (1970) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Marion Brown: Afternoon of a Georgia Faun (1970) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Alice Coltrane: Ptah The El Daoud (1970) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Dave Holland: Conference of the Birds (1972) [Scaruffi: 8.5 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Paul Bley: Dual Unity (1971) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Weather Report: I Sing the Body Electric (1972) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Jeanne Lee: Conspiracy (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8/10]
James Ulmer: Revealing (1977) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Chick Corea: Light as a Feather (1972) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Miles Davis: On The Corner (1972) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Anthony Braxton: Saxophone Improvisations (1972) [Scaruffi: 9/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that I've also had this as a 9 numerous times]
Carla Bley: Escalator Over The Hill (1971) [Scaruffi: 8.5/10 ... AH: 9/10]
Keith Jarrett: Survivors Suite (1976) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Sam Rivers: Streams (1973) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Sam Rivers: Crystals (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Cecil Taylor: Silent Tongues (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Steve Lacy: Saxophone Special (1974) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
McCoy Tyner: Extensions (1970) [Scaruffi: 8/10... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
Charles Mingus: Let My Children Hear Music (1971) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
McCoy Tyner: Sahara (1972) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: Les Stances A Sophie (1970) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Ive also had this as an 8]
Revolutionary Ensemble: The Psyche (1975) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Air: Air Raid (1976) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Sonny Sharrock: Monkey-Pockie-Boo (1970) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Mahavishnu Orchestra: The Inner Mounting Flame (1971) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8/10]
Carla Bley: Tropic Appetites (1973) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Chick Corea: Return To Forever (1972) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Rova Saxophone Quartet: Removal of Secrecy (1979) [Scaruffi: 8/10 ... AH: 7.5/10
Roland Kirk: Prepare Thyself To Deal With A Miracle (1973) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8.5s]
Leroy Jenkins: Legend of Ai Glatson (1978) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8 or 8.5 due to its higher ranking than other 8s and among other 8.5s]
Keith Jarrett: The Koeln Concert (1975) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10 ... Note that Scaruffi might actually rate this 8 due to its higher ranking than other 8s]
Air: Air Time (1977) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 8.5/10]
Art Ensemble of Chicago: With Fontella Bass (1970) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Alice Coltrane: Journey in Satchidananda (1970) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]
Pharoah Sanders: Black Unity (1971) [Scaruffi: 7/10 ... AH: 8/10]

1970s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 27/35 = 77%

1980s

SAME RATING:
Anthony Davis: Episteme (1981) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Anthony Davis: Hemispheres (1983) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Bill Frisell: Before We Were Born (1988) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Tim Berne: Fractured Fairy Tales (1989) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Anthony Davis: Undine (1987) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Borbetomagus: Barbed Wire Maggot (1983) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Pat Metheny: As Falls Wichita So Falls Wichita (1980) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Paul Motian: Psalm (1981) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Anthony Davis: Variations In Dream-time (1982) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 9/10]
Anthony Davis: Lady of the Mirrors (1980) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
John Zorn: Cobra (1986) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Scaruffi may actually rate this 8/10 due to its ranking above other 8s]
Henry Threadgill: Easily Slip Into Another World (1987) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10 … Scaruffi may actually rate this 8/10 due to its ranking above other 8s]

1980s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 8/12 = 67%

1990s

SAME RATING:
Franz Koglmann: The Use of Memory (1990) [Scaruffi: 7.5 … AH: 7.5/10]
Matthew Shipp: Circular Temple (1990) [Scaruffi: 7.5 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Guillermo Gregorio: Approximately (1996) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Franz Koglmann: Cantos I-IV (1993) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Jane Ira Bloom: Art & Aviation (1992) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8.5/10]
Bill Dixon: Vade Mecum (1993) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Jane Ira Bloom: The Red Quartets (1999) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Wayne Horvitz: Bring Your Camera (1991) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Dave Douglas: In Our Lifetime (1995) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Michael Formanek: Nature of the Beast (1996) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Ivo Perelman: Seeds, Visions and Counterpoint (1996) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 9/10]
Myra Melford: Even the Sounds Shine (1994) [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 9/10]
Marcus Roberts: Blues for the New Millennium (1997) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

1990s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 10/13 = 77%

2000s

SAME RATING:
Spring Heel Jack: Disappeared [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Marty Ehrlich: The Long View [Scaruffi: 8/10 … AH: 8/10]
Brad Mehidau: Largo [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

VERY CLOSE – DIFFERENTIAL WITHIN 0.4 OR LESS:
Jane Ira Bloom: Chasing Paint (2002) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]

RATING DIFFERENTIAL OF 0.5 OR MORE:
Franz Koglmann: Fear Death By Water (2003) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Denman Maroney: Fluxations [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Spring Heel Jack: Amassed [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Nels Cline: Instrumentals [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 … AH: 8/10]
Jason Moran: The Bandwagon [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Hiromi: Another Mind [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Vijay Iyer: Blood Sutra [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Spring Heel Jack: Live [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 8/10]
Scott Rosenberg: Creative Orchestra Music [Scaruffi: 7/10 … AH: 7.5/10]

2000s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 4/13 = 31%

2010s

SAME RATING:
Sarah Manning: Harmonious Creature (2014) [Scaruffi: 7.5/10 ... AH: 7.5/10]

2010s - SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE: 1/1 = 100%

OVERALL – SAME RATING OR VERY CLOSE -- ALL DECADES: 104/139 = 75%


No 9.5s in jazz? That's weird.
Also, as per the new ratings, a Kenny G album is Scaruffi-approved now! Well, it already was, but now we know it's approved to the same extent that Pet Sounds, OK Computer, Sgt. Pepper, Abbey Road, etc are. Worst 7/10 of all time? (Even Significant Other was better.)


I'm not sure which albums and which tracks of Kenny G I've heard as it's been several years, but from memory, they were pretty cookie cutter. Maybe earlier in his career he was more creatively inspired? Can Significant Other be "topped"? Laughing

No 9.5s in Jazz is not especially surprising. The Rock ones have been gradually upending them (very gradually) by my own estimation for quite a while, though I'm not sure about Faust... I've discussed the possibility it would turn out that way from Scaruffosaurus Rex on listology before, by PM, etc ... if I remember correctly, I think I also mentioned it on my BEA chart page a year ago or sth like that, but maybe not ... hard to remember the where or when of passing comments like that. Anyway, I reckon they're both "high" 9s ... just goes to illustrate how rare those 9.5s are. Neither Black Saint or ALS are as "visionary" as Faust/Rock Bottom/Trout Mask (or any of the highest Classical) so it's not hard to see where he's likely coming from.


@Facetious:

This reply from Oct 2018 is what I was remembering -- or at least the most recent one on BEA on this subject ... prior to his Jazz updates of course ... as it was months ago, it doesn't perfectly reflect my thoughts in the present but ... fwiw:

AfterHours wrote:
boyd94 wrote:
Purely out of curiosity, is there any indication of a rating /10 for Scaruffi's Jazz selections?

As a rule of thumb, would it be safe to say that if it appears on his "best of the decade" then it's 8+, on up to 9.5 for the highest selections, Black Saint and A Love Supreme etc.?

Also, what's the rationale behind his main Jazz list of 163 records? It doesn't seem to have any correspondence to his decade lists (as he himself notes), just wondering what its purpose is.


Not much of an indication except for a small number of his selections that he happens to rate. I imagine that at some point he'll end up publishing his ratings for them. Based on my own ratings, it seems like the cut off point for his decades lists are probably 7.5 or 7.8 ... it seems like 80s/90s are more centered around a foundation of 7.5+ entries and then some 8s and 8.5s and maybe a few 9s. It seems probable that 60s and 70s are more centered around mainly higher ratings (8+ and featuring more 8.5s and 9s) and may not go below 7.8 (or maybe the very bottom entry or few is 7.5 and it quickly escalates to 8+ until he fills it out with many more 7.5s he hasnt added yet?)... the 40s and 50s are probably 7.5 on up... I doubt any of the 40s are above 8 and the 50s might have some 9s and 8.5s? ... but this is all speculation based on my own assessments which (imo) are reliable for Jazz but not as reliable as they are (usually) for Rock -- my familiarity and speed of assimilation and listening experience is greater for Rock. There is no guarantee that even Black Saint and A Love Supreme are above 9 or any of those I list. I believe there is even an Annette Peacock page that lists Improvisie as 7/10 while I show it as a 9/10 (maybe 8.5) so who knows (whether I am correct about the 8.5/9 rating or not, it seems likely his 7 rating is outdated if he lists it #5 of the 70s). Etc... Anyway, you get the idea...

I have asked him if he plans on adding the ratings to Jazz and he replied "if I live long enough" Laughing

I assume his overall Jazz list is just an old version from years ago or a slapdash of his favorites somewhat randomly thrown onto the page (similar to the Film one).

_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings
Back to top
  • Visit poster's website
  • View user's profile
  • Send private message
Kool Keith Sweat





  • #243
  • Posted: 05/17/2019 23:09
  • Post subject:
  • Reply with quote
AfterHours wrote:
That could be a factor. Though, in his favor, it's hard to think of any improvisation that has reached the visionary expressiveness of the greatest masterpieces of the Beethoven's, Mahler's, Wagner's, etc of history... even in a parallel sense by purely/mostly jazz means.

Although, you may be the most knowledgeable person of improvised jazz I've ever seen, so if you've discovered otherwise, my ears would perk up...


I think the issue is precisely that it's not approached on its own terms. That kind of falls from dismissing performance or uncut improvisation in a music dependent upon performance and improvisation. I agree that the great composers have more nuanced and interesting notation, but most of the compositions I can think of in (mostly avant-garde) jazz are “small” and spring from performance to address performance (e.g. to subvert common performance cliches, provide a safety net from falling into a rut while improvising, establish dynamic relationships for large improvising ensembles), whereas classical performance is secondary to the score. And while classical performers most often strive for authenticity of the score, jazz performers most often strive for authenticity of the self. Compared to scores and rock studio recordings, most jazz feels ephemeral and uneven because performance is ephemeral and uneven (and there’s so many recordings because of so many performances). Compared to classical and rock solos, jazz solos can feel egoistic. But, I believe the jazz approach to music provides a unique avenue towards the most authentic expression of a musician’s self. You can hear the difference between Casals and Rostropovich or Ringo and Tucker, but you can infer the personalities of players like (Ned) Rothenberg or (Brandon) Lopez. The best performers play on their own unique time. Beyond this more philosophical divide though, I think (again, mostly avant-garde) jazz offers (at least) two things that are often un- or underrepresented in premodern classical or most of rock, unpredictability and timbral range. I was drawn to jazz because I got tired of going to shows of bands that I had never heard before and being able to easily predict their song structures (even “experimental” rock groups). And while I do have a soft spot for complex rhythmic exploration, my main fix is timbre and no other genre expresses and expands the possible range of timbres of any given instrument than improvised music thanks to musicians using extended techniques more frequently than an addict uses a lighter. Likewise, I imagine there are people who prefer complex (or not) melody, harmony, and classical form (as found in classical), but these things are of less value to me. It really is a case of “different strokes” because of the almost oppositional foundations of classical and jazz musics. No problem, it just means that someone who says one-take performance recordings of jazz are usually inferior to spliced-up studio recordings is an unreliable critic of jazz because they have a bias against the foundations of the music.

I’m always happy to recommend though, and I’ll keep it catered since I know you’re busy. I know you dig Cecil Taylor a lot, particularly Unit Structures and Silent Tongues, but I firmly believe his peak was in the ‘80s, with at least fifteen (!!!) recordings I enjoy more than either of those; I suggest Tzotzil Mummers Tzotzil for ensemble and Garden for solo (and Leaf Palm Hand, Riobec, and Remembrance for bonus percussion duos, complimenting Taylor’s percussive style). And the composer that’s most closely approached the great classics with a large ensemble is definitely Anthony Braxton, but only with his Ghost Trance Music pathways (not his ‘70s works); I suggest compositions 340-360, which can be found more or less compiled on 9 Compositions (Iridium) 2006 and GTM (Syntax) 2017. Here are resources to aid in interpretation with GTM: http://soundamerican.org/sa_archive/sa1...index.html (the pictures are links) and http://www.freejazzblog.org/2019/03/ant...7-new.html

https://firehouse12records.com/album/9-...idium-2006
https://newbraxtonhouse.bandcamp.com/al...yntax-2017
Garden and Tzotzil Mummers Tzotzil are both available on Spotify and Youtube
https://destination-out.bandcamp.com/al...88-box-set
Back to top
AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

  • #244
  • Posted: 05/18/2019 19:07
  • Post subject:
  • Reply with quote
I added a review of:



Go here: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...187#465187
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings
Back to top
  • Visit poster's website
  • View user's profile
  • Send private message
AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

  • #245
  • Posted: 05/21/2019 20:53
  • Post subject:
  • Reply with quote
Kool Keith Sweat wrote:
AfterHours wrote:
That could be a factor. Though, in his favor, it's hard to think of any improvisation that has reached the visionary expressiveness of the greatest masterpieces of the Beethoven's, Mahler's, Wagner's, etc of history... even in a parallel sense by purely/mostly jazz means.

Although, you may be the most knowledgeable person of improvised jazz I've ever seen, so if you've discovered otherwise, my ears would perk up...


I think the issue is precisely that it's not approached on its own terms. That kind of falls from dismissing performance or uncut improvisation in a music dependent upon performance and improvisation. I agree that the great composers have more nuanced and interesting notation, but most of the compositions I can think of in (mostly avant-garde) jazz are “small” and spring from performance to address performance (e.g. to subvert common performance cliches, provide a safety net from falling into a rut while improvising, establish dynamic relationships for large improvising ensembles), whereas classical performance is secondary to the score. And while classical performers most often strive for authenticity of the score, jazz performers most often strive for authenticity of the self. Compared to scores and rock studio recordings, most jazz feels ephemeral and uneven because performance is ephemeral and uneven (and there’s so many recordings because of so many performances). Compared to classical and rock solos, jazz solos can feel egoistic. But, I believe the jazz approach to music provides a unique avenue towards the most authentic expression of a musician’s self. You can hear the difference between Casals and Rostropovich or Ringo and Tucker, but you can infer the personalities of players like (Ned) Rothenberg or (Brandon) Lopez. The best performers play on their own unique time. Beyond this more philosophical divide though, I think (again, mostly avant-garde) jazz offers (at least) two things that are often un- or underrepresented in premodern classical or most of rock, unpredictability and timbral range. I was drawn to jazz because I got tired of going to shows of bands that I had never heard before and being able to easily predict their song structures (even “experimental” rock groups). And while I do have a soft spot for complex rhythmic exploration, my main fix is timbre and no other genre expresses and expands the possible range of timbres of any given instrument than improvised music thanks to musicians using extended techniques more frequently than an addict uses a lighter. Likewise, I imagine there are people who prefer complex (or not) melody, harmony, and classical form (as found in classical), but these things are of less value to me. It really is a case of “different strokes” because of the almost oppositional foundations of classical and jazz musics. No problem, it just means that someone who says one-take performance recordings of jazz are usually inferior to spliced-up studio recordings is an unreliable critic of jazz because they have a bias against the foundations of the music.

I’m always happy to recommend though, and I’ll keep it catered since I know you’re busy. I know you dig Cecil Taylor a lot, particularly Unit Structures and Silent Tongues, but I firmly believe his peak was in the ‘80s, with at least fifteen (!!!) recordings I enjoy more than either of those; I suggest Tzotzil Mummers Tzotzil for ensemble and Garden for solo (and Leaf Palm Hand, Riobec, and Remembrance for bonus percussion duos, complimenting Taylor’s percussive style). And the composer that’s most closely approached the great classics with a large ensemble is definitely Anthony Braxton, but only with his Ghost Trance Music pathways (not his ‘70s works); I suggest compositions 340-360, which can be found more or less compiled on 9 Compositions (Iridium) 2006 and GTM (Syntax) 2017. Here are resources to aid in interpretation with GTM: http://soundamerican.org/sa_archive/sa1...index.html (the pictures are links) and http://www.freejazzblog.org/2019/03/ant...7-new.html

https://firehouse12records.com/album/9-...idium-2006
https://newbraxtonhouse.bandcamp.com/al...yntax-2017
Garden and Tzotzil Mummers Tzotzil are both available on Spotify and Youtube
https://destination-out.bandcamp.com/al...88-box-set


I agree with a good percentage of what you're saying. Though all the greatest Classical composer's reached a pinnacle of expressing "self" in large part because they were such supreme, dynamic, multi-faceted composers/orchestrators (thus extemely skilled at how to produce the requisite expressions via instruments), and I haven't heard any such examples of improvisation that have quite reached the highest such states of vision and expression. Doesn't mean they don't exist or couldn't exist in that format -- there is plenty I haven't heard yet.

Thank you for the recs & all the links. I doubt Ive heard any of them and these will definitely be of use!

Re: Scaruffi ... I may be wrong as Ive never asked him but I think all Scaruffi is referring to are "live" albums rarely being as good as more practiced and perfected studio recordings (especially if of the same piece/work). I don't think he is referring at all to the improvisation inherent to jazz as a medium or to many of the improvised and/or free jazz masterpieces he rates/ranks highly. Any other interpretation of what he said probably wouldnt make sense with his views/selections.

I also wouldnt hold it against him if he hasnt rated/ranked several favorites yet. There is only so much art one person can listen to/view/evaluate in a given amount of time and when you also consider all the visual art, science, films, Rock, Classical... etc
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings
Back to top
  • Visit poster's website
  • View user's profile
  • Send private message
homelessking





  • #246
  • Posted: 07/31/2020 10:43
  • Post subject:
  • Reply with quote
Will you continue your challenge ratings and depth of challenge ratings someday? Would love to see the jazz version of those too
Back to top
  • Visit poster's website
  • View user's profile
  • Send private message
AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

  • #247
  • Posted: 07/31/2020 14:22
  • Post subject:
  • Reply with quote
homelessking wrote:
Will you continue your challenge ratings and depth of challenge ratings someday? Would love to see the jazz version of those too


Probably! Totally immersed in cinema right now. Film is so time consuming and currently I have much more available time than usual that I am trying to take advantage of to go back through dozens with potential for upgrade or which I had notes on that the rating was precarious or that needed a rewatch for whatever reason (plus key ones I haven't seen yet). But maybe I'll get to that list on my next round with Jazz. Plus revise the rock selections where needed.
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings
Back to top
  • Visit poster's website
  • View user's profile
  • Send private message
Rhyner
soft silly music is meaningful magical


Gender: Male
Age: 36
Location: Utah
United States

  • #248
  • Posted: 08/04/2020 01:20
  • Post subject:
  • Reply with quote
AfterHours wrote:
homelessking wrote:
Will you continue your challenge ratings and depth of challenge ratings someday? Would love to see the jazz version of those too
Probably! Totally immersed in cinema right now. Film is so time consuming and currently I have much more available time than usual that I am trying to take advantage of to go back through dozens with potential for upgrade or which I had notes on that the rating was precarious or that needed a rewatch for whatever reason (plus key ones I haven't seen yet). But maybe I'll get to that list on my next round with Jazz. Plus revise the rock selections where needed.


Here's a thought. Challenge ratings for films...

Just putting it out there.
Back to top
  • Visit poster's website
  • View user's profile
  • Send private message
AfterHours



Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

  • #249
  • Posted: 08/04/2020 02:35
  • Post subject:
  • Reply with quote
Rhyner wrote:
Here's a thought. Challenge ratings for films...

Just putting it out there.


Yes - great idea!

I briefly put one together years ago (different site) but discarded it ... dont remember why Think

One of the tougher decisions with "challenge ratings" is that there can be two disparate ratings with some works. And I fight myself between them or whether I should strike an avg or balance between them. There's what could be called the surface entertainment (or similar description) and there's also the deeper layers or subtext or profundity of the work (or similar description). Something like the Searchers might be roughly a 3.5 in surface entertainment in that it doesnt appear to be doing much that is unsual, but perhaps 7-7.5 in terms of its deeper layers/subtext much of which is almost impossible to discern without a good grasp of Ford's visual art, Ford's concerns and career trajectory, and probably multiple viewings. Citizen Kane, even more so than that, is a film that, by sheer force of its conveyance and cinematic spirit and narrative form and other elements, can be quite entertaining to any serious film goer but is probably impossible to truly assimilate and to really feel its solitude and emotion and astounding profundity without very close observation and a pretty in depth understanding of Welles' and Toland's cinematic language.

In Rock, Classical, Jazz, analagous factors persist. In Paintings too, there is the surface colors and visual style, plus deeper than that would be the ideas and themes being conveyed and further profundities that the composition and so on may reveal. Practically anyone will be blown away and awed by Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel Last Judg and Ceiling upon viewing it but that, while considerable in itself, is just the surface of it. Its composition, allusions, meanings, profundities are so staggering as to leave one in perpetual disbelief that such genius has occurred before and one could spend a lifetime with it without any lag in this. So is it a 2 because practically anyone will instantly be taken by it, or is it a 10 because uncovering its depths requires so much of one, its profundity seems endlessly developing and allusive and may not ever be fully grasped save for Michelangelo himself?

Etc...
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings
Back to top
  • Visit poster's website
  • View user's profile
  • Send private message
Rhyner
soft silly music is meaningful magical


Gender: Male
Age: 36
Location: Utah
United States

  • #250
  • Posted: 08/04/2020 21:48
  • Post subject:
  • Reply with quote
To answer that question, go back to your initial motivation for making the list in the first place. The purpose of the challenge ratings, per my understanding, is to provide others a more streamlined/efficient route into the great works of a given medium. Which option aids that purpose best? (assuming that is in fact the purpose)

I don't know what's best, but here's a thought to chew on. What if you have multiple entries for works with multiple ratings? For instance, in the section for works rated 2, you might have this entry:

Sistine Chapel (Ceiling & The Last Judgment) - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1512; 1541) [first introduction]

And then, further down the list in the 10s:

Sistine Chapel (Ceiling & The Last Judgment) - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1512; 1541) [full appreciation]

Or something like that?
Back to top
  • Visit poster's website
  • View user's profile
  • Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic
All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29  Next
Page 25 of 29


 

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Similar Topics
Topic Author Forum
Your Rating Criteria videoheadcleaner Lounge
Criteria for Music Evaluation DelBocaVista Music Diaries
[ Poll ] What criteria determine "greatne... AngryAchilles Music

 
Back to Top