Top 10+ Music, Movies, and Visual Art of the Week (2023) - Music Diaries

theredkrayola

I’ve noticed. I’m not a fan of it either. Americans have an unhealthy obsession with it, in my view

TiggaTrigga

Quick thoughts on Les Demoiselles d'Avignon? Do you find it overrated?

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

TiggaTrigga wrote:

Quick thoughts on Les Demoiselles d'Avignon? Do you find it overrated?

Not overrated. As you can see if you scroll down on the current "Top 10+ of the Week", I upgraded it (yesterday) ... plus I have it pretty highly ranked for the week, above even some works I think are superior. So it would be fairly odd timing for me to call it overrated. Even if no criticism would truly be meant by saying that it is nonetheless taken as such (ex: even calling a 9.5 a 9 instead could mean one thinks a work is "overrated" even though he still thinks it's an all time masterpiece).

So, only "overrated" maybe if we get very particular and strict (like my criteria/ratings scale) with the definition of "masterpiece" -- the scale of which could easily be sub-headed something like "levels of masterpiece from the 7.5s on up".

But I would agree that it is a masterpiece by most (more general/inclusive/democratic) definitions of the word, and by how most art historians would mean it, as it is an extraordinary and seminal work in Picasso's career and one could say it marked the first highly imaginative culmination point of his career, setting the stage for much of the rest, strongly alluding to and influencing his Cubism (or is already Cubism, depending on your view).

It is important to view the work up close as it has much more (and very unusual, creative) details and coloration than one is likely to notice or focus on at a distance. Plus this more closely approximates its actual life size in relation to the viewer (approx 8 feet by 8 feet). Some aspects to keep in mind...

*It is expressing the prostitutes and scene from multiplying angles/points of view, that could be called a mental confusion and paralysis by order of a combination of sexual allure and a startled overwhelm of intimidation
*The faces are infused by multiple viewpoints (especially lower figure on far right: the right and left sides are incongruent sides of different faces, eyes misaligned, mouth on one side, one ear jutting out...) and the glaring wide eyes daring and erotically charged, symbolized also by their primitive masks replacing their faces (it's own metaphor), violently or abruptly disrupting and disfiguring, jutting out from, confusing, their actual appearance to represent the intimidating way they are being viewed (as opposed to exact reality),
*It is "erotically charged" and "violent". The shifting angles of the bodies and faces and drapery behind them are metaphors for violence and/or sudden shock/intimidation, a rippling rupturing scene from reality, as the woman are overtly and nakedly offering themselves to him.
*The work is exploding with expressing this tension (between the prostitutes and Picasso/the viewer) and by upending dimension and perspective, upending the classical form and beauty of the human body into a new psychological expression, upends art history to do so
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theredkrayola

What do you think are the greatest novels of all time

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

theredkrayola wrote:

What do you think are the greatest novels of all time

I don't know as it's not an art form I've really delved into. The others are already too time consuming... I gave some (very rough) estimates in a reply to Facetious some pages back that vaguely answers the question (more on intuition than direct evaluations) but that's about it...
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TiggaTrigga

AfterHours wrote:

Not overrated. As you can see if you scroll down on the current "Top 10+ of the Week", I upgraded it (yesterday) ... plus I have it pretty highly ranked for the week, above even some works I think are superior. So it would be fairly odd timing for me to call it overrated. Even if no criticism would truly be meant by saying that it is nonetheless taken as such (ex: even calling a 9.5 a 9 instead could mean one thinks a work is "overrated" even though he still thinks it's an all time masterpiece).

So, only "overrated" maybe if we get very particular and strict (like my criteria/ratings scale) with the definition of "masterpiece" -- the scale of which could easily be sub-headed something like "levels of masterpiece from the 7.5s on up".

But I would agree that it is a masterpiece by most (more general/inclusive/democratic) definitions of the word, and by how most art historians would mean it, as it is an extraordinary and seminal work in Picasso's career and one could say it marked the first highly imaginative culmination point of his career, setting the stage for much of the rest, strongly alluding to and influencing his Cubism (or is already Cubism, depending on your view).

It is important to view the work up close as it has much more (and very unusual, creative) details and coloration than one is likely to notice or focus on at a distance. Plus this more closely approximates its actual life size in relation to the viewer (approx 8 feet by 8 feet). Some aspects to keep in mind...

*It is expressing the prostitutes and scene from multiplying angles/points of view, that could be called a mental confusion and paralysis by order of a combination of sexual allure and a startled overwhelm of intimidation
*The faces are infused by multiple viewpoints (especially lower figure on far right: the right and left sides are incongruent sides of different faces, eyes misaligned, mouth on one side, one ear jutting out...) and the glaring wide eyes daring and erotically charged, symbolized also by their primitive masks replacing their faces (it's own metaphor), violently or abruptly disrupting and disfiguring, jutting out from, confusing, their actual appearance to represent the intimidating way they are being viewed (as opposed to exact reality),
*It is "erotically charged" and "violent". The shifting angles of the bodies and faces and drapery behind them are metaphors for violence and/or sudden shock/intimidation, a rippling rupturing scene from reality, as the woman are overtly and nakedly offering themselves to him.
*The work is exploding with expressing this tension (between the prostitutes and Picasso/the viewer) and by upending dimension and perspective, upending the classical form and beauty of the human body into a new psychological expression, upends art history to do so

Interesting take on it being "violent". I never imagined the painting in that light. I'm wondering if you find Guernica to be the superior painting or not. Perhaps it's more emotionally charged?

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

TiggaTrigga wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Not overrated. As you can see if you scroll down on the current "Top 10+ of the Week", I upgraded it (yesterday) ... plus I have it pretty highly ranked for the week, above even some works I think are superior. So it would be fairly odd timing for me to call it overrated. Even if no criticism would truly be meant by saying that it is nonetheless taken as such (ex: even calling a 9.5 a 9 instead could mean one thinks a work is "overrated" even though he still thinks it's an all time masterpiece).

So, only "overrated" maybe if we get very particular and strict (like my criteria/ratings scale) with the definition of "masterpiece" -- the scale of which could easily be sub-headed something like "levels of masterpiece from the 7.5s on up".

But I would agree that it is a masterpiece by most (more general/inclusive/democratic) definitions of the word, and by how most art historians would mean it, as it is an extraordinary and seminal work in Picasso's career and one could say it marked the first highly imaginative culmination point of his career, setting the stage for much of the rest, strongly alluding to and influencing his Cubism (or is already Cubism, depending on your view).

It is important to view the work up close as it has much more (and very unusual, creative) details and coloration than one is likely to notice or focus on at a distance. Plus this more closely approximates its actual life size in relation to the viewer (approx 8 feet by 8 feet). Some aspects to keep in mind...

*It is expressing the prostitutes and scene from multiplying angles/points of view, that could be called a mental confusion and paralysis by order of a combination of sexual allure and a startled overwhelm of intimidation
*The faces are infused by multiple viewpoints (especially lower figure on far right: the right and left sides are incongruent sides of different faces, eyes misaligned, mouth on one side, one ear jutting out...) and the glaring wide eyes daring and erotically charged, symbolized also by their primitive masks replacing their faces (it's own metaphor), violently or abruptly disrupting and disfiguring, jutting out from, confusing, their actual appearance to represent the intimidating way they are being viewed (as opposed to exact reality),
*It is "erotically charged" and "violent". The shifting angles of the bodies and faces and drapery behind them are metaphors for violence and/or sudden shock/intimidation, a rippling rupturing scene from reality, as the woman are overtly and nakedly offering themselves to him.
*The work is exploding with expressing this tension (between the prostitutes and Picasso/the viewer) and by upending dimension and perspective, upending the classical form and beauty of the human body into a new psychological expression, upends art history to do so

Interesting take on it being "violent". I never imagined the painting in that light. I'm wondering if you find Guernica to be the superior painting or not. Perhaps it's more emotionally charged?

To be clear, in case this was missed in my rushed and incomplete explanation, it's not necessarily "physical" violence (at least not combat between 2 or more people). It's primarily psychological. It's perhaps more fitting to say that it is expressing a "violent tension" between the prostitutes and Picasso/the viewer. There are many synonyms that can substitute the word as well, so long as the main idea is kept. It is mainly important to realize that the prostitutes are very erotically and aggressively glaring and posing towards Picasso/the viewer while also referencing primitive masks (replacing the faces) and suggesting such with their stances (both erotic and referencing "primitive" stances and ritual), with the 2D picture plane, any 3D or linear perspective, most 3D dimension, upended from the composition. It is being wildly, "violently" upended and disoriented into confusion, a profusion of sudden angles and shifting perspectives that are jutting out from and upsetting reality/perception. The bodies are being disrupted from classical nudes and form (that had informed fine art prior to this and Cezanne) into grotesque faces and forms that now have sharp angles and arresting disfigurations and confusions of reality with varying angles and perspectives. So it's a "violence" from all vantage points. The "violence" of the forms now becoming sudden, sharp angles and geometric forms to represent danger and shock and sudden disorientation. First technical and in upending form and art history, but Picasso makes much more psychological correlation with the characters in the painting (gives them a lot more personality and involvement) and strikes this direct "erotically charged, aggressive, intimidating" tension between them and Picasso/the viewer (whereas with Cezanne's Large Bathers, perhaps its main influence, they and the technique are very subdued, not "violent" even though it too had upended similar things on a purely technical and formal level). It also goes beyond the more subdued and analytical nature of most cubism that followed, and although a key forerunner, it is far more erotically and violently charged and a bit too colorful, probably too much so to be considered cubism specifically or wholly.

Re: Guernica superior? ... Yeah, any time I rate something above another, that means I think it's superior. Especially if it's as big a gap as 7.3 vs 8.6... Guernica is so astonishing that it may be on the verge of being upgraded again into 8.8+ (years ago it was but as I eval'd more and more paintings it dropped down into the 7.5s, then moved back up into the 8s, now 8.5s and now may return to the all time masterpieces after its long hiatus). Anyway, yes, it's more profound, emotional, etc. Almost certainly the peak of Picasso's career and probably of all Cubist art before Trout Mask Replica (though both merge Cubism into other genres: expressionism, surrealism...)
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TiggaTrigga

I didn't realize you had Guernica considered a masterpiece. I'd be surprised if you didn't already have an analysis of it somewhere on this site since it's a masterpiece. I remember reading your Mona Lisa one a long time ago, and it definitely made me see that painting in a new light. Though I'll say that Guernica seems like it has more "character" than Mona Lisa, at least at face value.

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

TiggaTrigga wrote:

I didn't realize you had Guernica considered a masterpiece. I'd be surprised if you didn't already have an analysis of it somewhere on this site since it's a masterpiece. I remember reading your Mona Lisa one a long time ago, and it definitely made me see that painting in a new light. Though I'll say that Guernica seems like it has more "character" than Mona Lisa, at least at face value.

Though close, I actually don't have Guernica as a masterpiece, I currently have it at 8.6/10. I said that it could return to 8.8+ like it was years ago (maybe that's what you meant?). I think I've said some key points about it here and there over the years but I haven't posted any "official" analysis for it on any incarnations of my "Greatest Paintings" lists. But hope to do so at some point, as it is very profound and quite powerful, certainly well beyond what is initially evident on the surface (not that anything really is truly "evident", as in much of Picasso).

My "Greatest Paintings" list is always linked at the top of each "Top 10 of the Week" list updates (with the other "main" lists: Rock/Jazz, Classical, Film...) plus at the bottom of all my posts/comments/replies on the site (including this one). Otherwise it can still be found in the "Lounge Forum" (currently on the 2nd page of the forum). Though keep in mind that the list is still very much in progress as it is a pretty comprehensive undertaking to rate and rank paintings, culling from more than 900 years of art history (Giotto forward being the bulk of history, the bulk of what is truly significant). Although I've gone through more than an estimated 20,000 paintings over the years, including most of the significant works from 1200s through Dali, that doesn't mean I am that close to evaluating them comprehensively enough to determine specific ratings and rankings in relation to each other and per current standards. That has and will be a continuing process for who knows how long and will include at least one more journey through the bulk of the history of art, to fine tune and make more complete determinations of so many of them that I haven't decided on yet or haven't even looked at or evaluated in years, etc. The ones I've already done so with are those that you see on my lists. Plus, years ago, this also was done with the selections on the old lists you can still find in scrolling below the much more current 6.8+ and 7.3+ lists. Though I no longer consider those older ones accurate as their evals and ratings weren't as valid as they would be if done newly. Some of them are still close, many would drop some, and others would drop significantly. In short, most need new evals and in closer comparison to current standards. So there are still several 6.8+ and 7.3+ to come on the most current lists, likely hundreds all tolled.

Thanks for your feedback on the Mona Lisa analysis. It certainly took some work and study when I put it together. It is still on the "Greatest Paintings" list as well as some other analyses. The Mona Lisa one does need to be revised a little bit, as I forgot to include and tie together a very important aspect (only alluded to but not emphasized enough) that I'll clarify more when I get back to it. Anyhow, in the meantime, it should still prove valuable to anyone that wants more understanding of what makes it so extraordinary.
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theredkrayola

If a 10 is absolute perfection, where would you rank Trout mask replica et. al? I feel like if we’re being objective, a masterpiece such as Parable of arable land is only about a 3/10 if a 10 is truly the greatest work of art it’s possible to conceive. If the greatest work of art in human history is a 9.5, then Parable is certainly at least a 9. But have humans even came close to absolute perfection? Absolute perfection is probably so mind blowing we can’t even imagine it. We’ve probably never gotten higher than a 3/10 or 4