Issues in Video Games and Entertainment - Lounge

Jasonconfused
If We Make It We Can All Sit Back and Laugh

Gender: Male
Location: Washington

I've been playing Fifa 15 pretty much nonstop since it came out. Try fucking with my Ultimate Team.
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SquishypuffDave

Gender: Male
Age: 33

Happymeal wrote:

there are bigger fights needed to be partaken in when referring to feminism

Gowi wrote:

I don't think we should feel abhorrent towards concepts like Mario

Grammar please.

SquishypuffDave

Gender: Male
Age: 33

Puncture Repair wrote:

Are video games sexist? Probably, to some degree, but there are much bigger and much more real fights for gender equality happening, it doesn't make sense to explode over something as benign as video games.

I think sexism should be opposed in every situation, and if videogames are sexist then they're not benign. I'm not a fan of the whole "focus on prejudice when it's big and obvious" attitude. Things like sexism and racism are systemic and a lot of the time it's unconscious. Just because something is subtle doesn't mean it's less real. It still makes a big impact that might not be immediately visible.

It could even be argued that the subtle stuff is more dangerous because it flies under the radar more easily and critics can be easily dismissed as histrionic/attention-seeking/thin-skinned, etc. I feel like society is still at a point where calling something sexist is more offensive than sexism, because calling something sexist is overt and most sexism is subliminal and harder to quantify.

Also, the whole "journalism ethics" aspect of gamergate seems pretty weak. From what I know of it, it just sounds like a smear campaign without much evidence behind it. I haven't investigated the issue in much depth though, so feel free to call me out on that.

Happymeal

SquishypuffDave wrote:

Also, the whole "journalism ethics" aspect of gamergate seems pretty weak. From what I know of it, it just sounds like a smear campaign without much evidence behind it. I haven't investigated the issue in much depth though, so feel free to call me out on that.

Then you know very little. If you looked at any number of gamergate associated conversations, then a majority of the people involved discuss this (and actually, gamergate has achieved its goal of getting certain ethical standards on websites). There are always gonna be bad apples who associate themselves with a movement, especially one that has no real central leadership like gamergate. Most people in the movement think that behavior (harassment, threats, whatever else) is abhorrent.

Satie

I think what turns people off about Gamergate isn't even a strong conviction that it's intentionally a movement against women using these arguments about ethics to mask that "true" purpose. I don't even think people think the majority of people in Gamergate are actively hurting women in the industry. I think the real problem is that when valid allegations are brought out against very vocal minorities within the larger movement, the larger movement spends more time trying to save face and continue business as usual instead of seriously considering why so many bad apples are choosing to affiliate themselves with their movement and to actively combat those "abhorrent" personalities.

I think "ethics in games journalism" is also sort of laughed at widely by outsiders to gaming in general because the specific case that set it off, to my knowledge, involved a supposed relationship of a female game designer and a male journalist, and was a thinly veiled attempt to assassinate the characters of perceived SJW gaming presences. Pay no mind to the fact that the entire industry of games journalism is a glorified advertising and marketing operation and has been since its inception, with paid game reviews being widely acknowledged and never spurring a movement.

All that said, I don't doubt that there are problems to address, though I would say that rape threats against female journalists and commentators are a more serious problem in gaming culture, if I can refer to it briefly as a monolith, than very dubious claims about ethical boundary-crossing. I also don't think that every Gamergate affiliate has bad intentions. I just think y'all should kinda check yourself and where your priorities are. There's a reason the movement is being viewed from the outside as especially sexist (or, at best, "gender-blind" if you will), and, contrary to what some may believe, this is not because of some international "SJW" conspiracy.

Happymeal

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the larger movement spends more time trying to save face and continue business as usual instead of seriously considering why so many bad apples are choosing to affiliate themselves with their movement and to actively combat those "abhorrent" personalities.

This type of attitude is exactly the problem. There aren't a lot of bad apples associating themselves with gamergate, the media portrays them as part of gamergate. Yes, there are certainly a very tiny percentage of gamergate related posts that do possess bad remarks about certain people, but there are not many. A plethora of the complaints about gamergate has nothing to do with gamergate and this idea is typically only perpetuated by the ignorant.

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I think "ethics in games journalism" is also sort of laughed at widely by outsiders to gaming in general because the specific case that set it off, to my knowledge, involved a supposed relationship of a female game designer and a male journalist, and was a thinly veiled attempt to assassinate the characters of perceived SJW gaming presences. Pay no mind to the fact that the entire industry of games journalism is a glorified advertising and marketing operation and has been since its inception, with paid game reviews being widely acknowledged and never spurring a movement.

This complaint has been made several times and can you not understand that the way gaming media has presented itself has been leading up to this. The Zoey Quinn scandal only sparked this movement, it wasn't why it was created. This tension has been building up for a long time.

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All that said, I don't doubt that there are problems to address, though I would say that rape threats against female journalists and commentators are a more serious problem in gaming culture

These threats are typically made by anonymous trolls who have no affiliation to gamergate and yes it is a problem. Most people think so within the gamergate movement, but everyone receives harassment and threats online. The reason why people don't typically care is because they brush off the threats of murder, rape, etc. as nothing but trolls and knowing that these threats will never come to light. A large portion of prominent figures in gamergate have had threats (of rape, murder, assault, etc.) sent to them, their addresses revealed, etc. This is not a female only problem and you act like female journalists are the only ones receiving these threats (and yes, rape threats are sent to males as well. To quantify the amount on either gender is impossible). The point is that many people thinks it's a problem, but don't care because they know how to ignore fake threats.

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if I can refer to it briefly as a monolith, than very dubious claims about ethical boundary-crossing. I also don't think that every Gamergate affiliate has bad intentions. I just think y'all should kinda check yourself and where your priorities are. There's a reason the movement is being viewed from the outside as especially sexist (or, at best, "gender-blind" if you will), and, contrary to what some may believe, this is not because of some international "SJW" conspiracy.

Ok, so, let me ask you something, if gamergate isn't viewed as sexist because the media tends to purposefully portray it as such, what are some of the prominent figures of the movement? what are some of the discussions being held amongst gamergate associates?

EDIT: I want to clarify 2 things. 1. I don't see anything wrong with being gender blind though that doesn't necessarily mean anything about gamergate (and I'm not stating I'm generally gender - blind) and 2. The point of the questions weren't necessarily for you to answer, but to understand that if people can't generally answer those, then their conclusions about gg is only one based on ignorance. The point isn't that I really care whether you know this or not, but ignorance can really skew a certain viewpoint on anything.

Satie

Happymeal wrote:

This type of attitude is exactly the problem. There aren't a lot of bad apples associating themselves with gamergate, the media portrays them as part of gamergate. Yes, there are certainly a very tiny percentage of gamergate related posts that do possess bad remarks about certain people, but there are not many. A plethora of the complaints about gamergate has nothing to do about gamergate and the idea that is typically only perpetuated by the ignorant.

I won't claim to not be ignorant if my sources are irrevocably compromised in your eyes. As you would anticipate, I get my sense of the situation from going on /v/ or /pol/ every once in awhile and seeing their bile and then reading pieces from the New York Times to Slate slamming Gamergate, and most of the Internet circles I run in see it as pretty disgusting. If all these sources are wrong, and I am open to that being the case, you're going to have to show me this corner of the Internet where you're going to find "the real Gamergate," because self-professed Gamergaters (Gamergators?) in most of the popular forums like 4chan and Reddit are, based on my experience, at worst misogynistic, and at best "gender-blind," ignoring that as a serious problem in the wider gaming community and their own niche of it in particular.

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This complaint has been made several times and can you not understand that the way gaming media has presented itself has been leading up to this. The Zoey Quinn scandal only sparked this movement, it wasn't why it was created.

I mean, sure, but that doesn't mean that analysis of why that case in particular sparked the movement is irrelevant. Usually, large movements are sparked by something that sort of follows the natural progression of the mounting problem. I find it odd that the problem of too much money in the games journalism outlets from major publishers is being acknowledged only subsequent to a very hostile (and, in many cases, openly misogynistic) attack on an indie game producer.

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These threats are typically made by anonymous trolls who have no affiliation to gamergate and yes it is a problem. Most people think so within the gamergate movement, but everyone receives harassment and threats online. The reason why people don't typically care is because they brush off the threats of murder, rape, etc. as nothing but trolls and knowing that these threats will never come to light. A large portion of prominent figures in gamergate have had threats (of rape, murder, assault, etc.) sent to them, their addresses revealed, etc. This is not a female only problem and you act like female journalists are the only ones receiving these threats (and yes, rape threats are sent to males as well. To quantify the amount on either gender is impossible). The point is that many people thinks it's a problem, but don't care because they know how to ignore fake threats.

I think that this sort of dismissive "It's only the Internet" response from Gamergators (I decided I prefer this spelling) is why wider media doesn't want to engage with them. You're too busy insisting that these people are just making up problems out of thin air that you understand to be unfounded concerns to hear out that this is a genuinely difficult position to be placed in. And stop with this "Men get threats too!" business. Yes, this is technically a fact, but the most widely reported threats in this movement in particular and the thing that is the point of discussion here is the body of threats made against women, who make up a minority in this industry and in this conversation at present.

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Ok, so, let me ask you something, if gamergate isn't viewed as sexist because the media tends to purposefully portray it as such, what are some of the prominent figures of the movement? what are some of the discussions being held amongst gamergate associates?

I think this is a misdirection, though. I acknowledge that Gamergate isn't being given a platform to blast its supposed "true" message on, and I agree that sensationalism can get away with major media outlets, preferring to focus on the big bad sexists vs. the more mundane ethical concerns, but THIS IS NOT WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE. Again, maybe when you respond to my first paragraph here, you will suddenly have a big message board or convention or scholarly journal to present to me where a bunch of people are weighing serious ethical issues on one hand and gleefully playing Super Smash Brothers in an all-inclusive sphere resembling something closer to the Garden of Eden than has ever before been seen on Earth, but as far as I can tell, from first-hand reading of the two sites that seem to be platforms for discussion of the movement at all, these kinds of thoughtful individuals are not in the majority.

Therein lies the problem. You seek to hold wider media accountable for calling the movement out on its shit and not focusing on its "real argument," but instead of holding yourselves accountable for the dubious origins of the movement and the ongoing epidemic of misogyny (even if it is a minority), or at least acknowledging either in a truly good faith way, you insist on whining day in and day out about how it's not about what everyone in the world but you can see that it is.

But I am withholding judgment until I see some articles or some forums from you that go against the grain of what I'm saying, because I literally have not seen one that doesn't make one of the following mistakes:

1. Be straight up misogynistic.
2. Hastily deflate legitimate concerns in order to get back to the topic Gamergators want to discuss.
3. Strawman "SJWs" or "mainstream media."
4. Acknowledge problems but insist that the solution to this is, paradoxically, for everyone to stop acknowledging them. Apparently, this is necessary because so few Gamergators are bad apples. What would logically be easily stamped out if it were such a small minority must instead be ignored for Gamergators to get what they want.

For the record, your own responses have done 2, 3, and 4. That's not to be antagonistic, because I think you make good points, but rather for you to look at the tone and content of what you're saying and to understand how it might be better to be less defensive and more open to criticism of the movement so "outsiders," "normies," "SJWs," etc. can start taking you seriously.

Applerill
Autistic Princess <3

Gender: Female
Age: 30
Location: Chicago

Everyone in this discussion who isn't Permafrost or Squishy is part of why I can't take video games seriously as an art form.

Happymeal

Permafrost, I didn't know you were more intrigued by what gamergate has done in regards to ethics in your original statements. I'm fine with showing you and I do disagree with certain things you said, but I find this more important as you're more interested about it and really the conversation was never meant to go into the territory of gender politics. I just want to clarify that I support gamergate, but I'm not a part of it. I observe discussions and accomplishments, but I don't partake in them because my disdain of identifying with groups. I'll come back (I'm extremely tired) within the next few days with the evidence you may want to take into consideration if this is case.

EDIT: Also, a large portion of gamergate's intentions have already been complete due to websites improving ethics policies. I find GG to be more along the lines of an ethics watchdog at this point rather than attempting to create or improve ethics policies.

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Everyone in this discussion who isn't Permafrost or Squishy is part of why I can't take video games seriously as an art form.

Whatever. If an "art form" entails forced ideologies unto a free medium of entertainment, then I hope it never becomes an art form.

Applerill
Autistic Princess <3

Gender: Female
Age: 30
Location: Chicago

I never said it wasn't an artform. I just said I couldn't take it seriously as one.

To be blunt, if people can't handle social criticism that is already given to every other medium, how is it supposed to exist and intellectually grow? That's why it was so egregious that the gamergators were against Depression Quest and Gone Home as opposed to the new Call of Duty. At their very best, they simply want to remain babies.