Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

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SquishypuffDave



Gender: Male
Age: 33
Australia

  • #31
  • Posted: 05/22/2015 09:50
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@Happymeal

In terms of examples, sexism in games is pretty similar to what you see in other mediums: women being positioned as romantic prizes to be earned by overcoming obstacles, random women being raped so the male protagonist can get mad, random women being murdered so that the male protagonist can get mad, the sexualized design of female characters, the general overabundance of lazy stereotypes, hypermasculine universes where women don't seem to exist.

Sometimes negative messages are specific to the individual product, sometimes they're a broader trend comprised of products that are defensible on an individual basis, but collectively send a negative message. That's why it's not useful to blame individuals. The problem is systemic.

I'm not saying gaming is a uniquely sexist medium. I'm saying videogames have sexism in them. So do movies and TV shows and books. You seem to be taking all of this as a personal attack, or an attack on the medium itself. I'm not comparing videogames to blackface, I'm comparing hurtful stereotypes in videogames to blackface.

If a game is going to cause girls to develop a negative self-image, or cause boys to develop negative/unrealistic attitudes toward girls, then fixing that nonsense isn't going to make the game less marketable. There aren't many consumers explicitly asking for damsel-in-distress narratives with hypersexualized cardboard cutout female characters. If anything, changing that particular formula would probably give the game a broader appeal. I'm not claiming that developers don't cater to certain demographics, I just think market research is a pseudoscience on the same level as palm-reading and astrology.

tl;dr: For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against cosmic powers in the darkness around us, and against spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly realm.
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Puncture Repair





  • #32
  • Posted: 05/22/2015 10:09
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permafrost wrote:
Well I think in particular that video games need a bit of a dressing down over these issues because the medium is the only mass entertainment/art form that has such unbelievably skewed representation of women from the consumer, to the critic, to the creator. This is worrisome because video games have a huge amount of sway over young people and will likely become the next cross-generational entertainment/art form following films. Note that when I say sway, I don't mean to say that people are completely conditioned by video games, nor do I mean to say that the tropes shown by video games are necessarily the cause of wider systemic issues, so much as a symptom. I certainly don't mean to say that all video game consumers, critics, and creators are completely ignorant of these issues or unable to intelligently engage with video games that are individually sexist or have sexist elements without being complete misogynists.

HOWEVER video games uniquely refuse, across the boards, to engage with those who point out the harms that they perpetuate and reflect. When a film expresses a sexist viewpoint, the creators are taken to task, and consumers are asked why they find pleasure in hurtful stereotypes or grisly actions taken against female characters. Of course, film is far from perfect, as the incredible amount of sexist and racist bile that tops weekend box office lists goes to show, but for every joke Adam Sandler makes about American Indians or black people or women, there is a Slate or Salon article to ask why he did that, a movie reviewer panning the film, consumers expressing discontent, and creators making films that don't do that same thing. The balance between filth and truly edifying art that doesn't hurt or belittle other people is much more skewed in video games, and that's because pioneering critics (either of games on an individual scoring basis or of the medium as a whole) who seek to point out (not censor, as Gamergators seem to assert without much evidence or understanding) these problems are shouted down, threatened, and largely set up as enemies of the state, only able to be financially and emotionally supported by people outside of gaming culture (again, reductively referred to here as a monolith for convenience's sake). Creators also are severely lacking here, because the cost to make an indie game is high and the consumer base doesn't yet exist for strong video games in resistance a la independent films that counterbalance the artistic and ethical/political dearth in Hollywood writ large. EDIT: To clarify before you jump down my throat that we are in a golden age of indie gaming, I acknowledge this, but I mean specifically with regard to politically and philosophically subversive pieces of art, something that is lacking in the indie games put forward to day that painting with a broad brush tend to focus more on subverting the medium as a medium, not as a political entity, e.g. by using creative control or graphic approaches.

As much as Gamergators like to wax poetic about their own shunning from wider conversations about video games, people who come from the outside to the incredibly insular community that is online video gamers are routinely harassed, seen as a "them" to the "us" of gamers, and never allowed a seat at the table. Anita Sarkeesian is one particularly vocal example, and it seems to be a weird paranoia. Anita has never demanded censorship of sexist games. She has never asked for the heads of certain game journalists or creators. She has never called for a boycott of sexist video games. She has merely set out to educate about problematic elements in games that she first and foremost discloses that she likes (and some that she, as anyone with an individual taste in pieces from an art form does, dislikes). The response has been threats of rape and death online but also real life threats of violence (see: her speaking opportunity at the University of Utah that resulted in threats of gun violence to university police). If this really is "just an Internet thing," why is it not seen as weird that ethic supporters in video games uniquely threaten violence on college campuses? Palestine supporters, black nationalists, radical feminists, and LGBT rights activists, who all have much more serious issues to contend with, don't have a massive reputation in the present moment for threatening school officials with mass shootings should speakers be invited to speak, and when they dislike a speaker, they engage through democratic channels to get that speaker dis-invited if they feel the need to, but this is largely a student momentum building tactic that is beyond the scope of this discussion and one that I'll reserve my opinion on for another time.

tl;dr: Sure, but...


I don't really see this idea that video games are the only form of media that rejects its criticisms. At around the same time that 'Spider-Woman' cover received rave criticism from journalists as depicting women in a soley-sexual light, and the comic book community was just as quick as those involved in Gamergate to dismiss it. Even on these forums when allegations about musicians writing sexist lyrics or promoting violence and suicide are made in the news, there's a mass eye roll because we know those criticizing it don't understand it. Sarkeesian made claims that were false about certain video games to perpetuate an idea in people's heads that video games are sexist to those that likely don't play video games, and won't question it. Why would people not refuse her criticisms when time and time again she lies about aspects of games to make it seem more shocking that it is? We're constantly rolling our eyes at sensationalist journalists in the news, so why is this different? If she intends to educate people, she should do what any other reputable educator does and perform actual research and provide her source material.

Death and rape threats are always inexcusable, and whatever Sarkeesian has done doesn't even come close to justifying what she's been through, I'm not disputing that. Heck, even just some of the childish bile some people come up with on a day to day basis is bad enough. My point on 'energy and time' applies just as much to those who oppose Sarkeesian, as well as her. Her more recent videos highlighting and promoting strong female characters in games are productive, but her older videos often did little more than incite anger where I believe it didn't need to be incited.
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Happymeal





  • #33
  • Posted: 05/22/2015 10:58
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Quote:
In terms of examples, sexism in games is pretty similar to what you see in other mediums: women being positioned as romantic prizes to be earned by overcoming obstacles, random women being raped so the male protagonist can get mad, random women being murdered so that the male protagonist can get mad, the sexualized design of female characters, the general overabundance of lazy stereotypes, hypermasculine universes where women don't seem to exist.


It's in result of a male dominated industry, not because of sexism. Do you expect someone to able to properly portray a point of view that they do not have? This is a perfectly fine complaint that women aren't represented as well as men in video games, but it's not sexism, it's just the nature of a free market where one perspective is a majority. Damsel in distress tropes are extremely explainable this way. conflicts in stories are easiest to write when something important is at stake. A loved one is the most realistic result of easy story - telling and when you subsequently have a majority of one perspective, it makes sense why the damsel trope exists. I'm not saying that people shouldn't make games which represent these perspectives, I'm saying we shouldn't force them or pressure them into doing so. Someone who wants to make a good games utilizing cool characters which have different perspectives will do that, but we can't force ideologies onto creators. That's very irresponsible.

Quote:
Sometimes negative messages are specific to the individual product, sometimes they're a broader trend comprised of products that are defensible on an individual basis, but collectively send a negative message. That's why it's not useful to blame individuals. The problem is systemic.


Yeah, fuck people making games they want to make. Adhere to my agenda!


Quote:
If a game is going to cause girls to develop a negative self-image, or cause boys to develop negative/unrealistic attitudes toward girls, then fixing that nonsense isn't going to make the game less marketable.


What evidence do you have for this? You complain marketing is a pseudoscience yet attempt to frame video games as causing sexism. This is similar how Jack Thompson utilized that bullshit "video games cause violence" when the figures showed quite the opposite. As for the industry itself, there are a plethora of inclusive games showing perspectives or non - male characters. I'm not stating it's a majority, but there are a large number of them.

Quote:
There aren't many consumers explicitly asking for damsel-in-distress narratives with hypersexualized cardboard cutout female characters.


Citing your sources when making these claims really help make the argument right or wrong. I'm not stating people are overtly asking for these types of things, but it's obvious that games with these in them appeal to the majority. Males tend to enjoy the female figure and if a game concocts sexy females with a good story and game play, then it's more obvious why they would purchase this game over a game that has the same exact content without the females. I'm not stating that I personally do this because my preferences really amount to DOTA 2, Mount and warblade, SWKOTOR, etc., but, being a male, I know how enticing a good looking female character can be. I'm fine with you thinking market research can be bullshit, but almost nothing is on the level of palm reading, astrology, etc. Market research bases itself in reality and comparing it to these insane things (like belief of supernatural, god, palm reading, etc.) is a huge disservice to it.
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SquishypuffDave



Gender: Male
Age: 33
Australia

  • #34
  • Posted: 05/22/2015 11:02
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Happymeal wrote:
No one was complaining about depression quest. They were complaining about how the creator Zoey quinn possessed several sexual relationships with different journalist who subsequently promoted the game. That was the issue.


But this all turned out to be false, right? Now that it has been established that the claim was a conjecture that didn't line up with the actual series of events, is it not possible that those allegations were motivated by something other than "journalism ethics"?

You keep going on about how all these reputable news outlets have failed to properly research the issue, and that if they'd just read the things you have read then they'd see that gamergaters are the good guys. You're beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist.

"The people sending those threatening messages aren't true gamergaters." That's called the no true Scotsman fallacy. A bunch of angry gamers make unfounded accusations about a female game designer, and a bunch of angry gamers send her threatening messages at the same time. Do you honestly think there's no overlap there?
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Saoirse





  • #35
  • Posted: 05/22/2015 11:04
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Puncture Repair wrote:
I don't really see this idea that video games are the only form of media that rejects its criticisms. At around the same time that 'Spider-Woman' cover received rave criticism from journalists as depicting women in a soley-sexual light, and the comic book community was just as quick as those involved in Gamergate to dismiss it. Even on these forums when allegations about musicians writing sexist lyrics or promoting violence and suicide are made in the news, there's a mass eye roll because we know those criticizing it don't understand it. Sarkeesian made claims that were false about certain video games to perpetuate an idea in people's heads that video games are sexist to those that likely don't play video games, and won't question it. Why would people not refuse her criticisms when time and time again she lies about aspects of games to make it seem more shocking that it is? We're constantly rolling our eyes at sensationalist journalists in the news, so why is this different? If she intends to educate people, she should do what any other reputable educator does and perform actual research and provide her source material.

Death and rape threats are always inexcusable, and whatever Sarkeesian has done doesn't even come close to justifying what she's been through, I'm not disputing that. Heck, even just some of the childish bile some people come up with on a day to day basis is bad enough. My point on 'energy and time' applies just as much to those who oppose Sarkeesian, as well as her. Her more recent videos highlighting and promoting strong female characters in games are productive, but her older videos often did little more than incite anger where I believe it didn't need to be incited.



I obviously agree facts shouldn't be distorted in any way... but there's a big difference between occasional distortion and pulling things out of thin air. Yes, games aren't inherently sexist, but there's plenty of sexist themes, imagery and motivation rampant throughout video games. What I take issue with the above paragraphs is that it seems to be saying that she was highlighting a non-essential or even non-existant issue, or that somehow talking about sexism in video games was counter-productive (you can't work to extinguish the fires if you don't recognize how they're being lit), and Im also geting a none-too-subtle vibe in previous posts that the much wider-reaching issues being brought up both by Sarkesian and the gamer-gate controversy about sexism in entertainment (or discussion about any particular entertainment) at large are not to be taken too seriously cause afterall it's "just video games", but that may just be due to a lack of overall clarity.


Last edited by Saoirse on 05/22/2015 11:29; edited 1 time in total
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Applerill
Autistic Princess <3


Gender: Female
Age: 30
Location: Chicago
United States

  • #36
  • Posted: 05/22/2015 11:18
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Everyone in this thread wrote:
Rape is bad, but.....


This is half of what is so disgusting in this thread. If you take something so deathly serious like rape, and then say that "ethics in gaming journalism" is more important, then you surely never cared about rape in the first place.

Also, you guys do realize that what you call "ethics" with Zooey Quinn is really just crass, cold-hearted slut-shaming, right? Even if she hypothetically was doing what she was accused of (which she didn't, as any credible source can easily explain), it really is disgusting to defame women for practicing that sort of natural sexuality. When even the manufactured stories you tell are this stilted and vile, you know there's a problem.


Last edited by Applerill on 05/22/2015 11:34; edited 1 time in total
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Saoirse





  • #37
  • Posted: 05/22/2015 11:26
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Before some people jump on Charlie, just to clarify the issues about both how women are treated in video games (and more so in entertainment at large) and the often vile, misogynistic, and at times violent attitude by a vocal minority to anybody who speaks up against said bad treatment that are rife both on-line and in some cases real-life, deserve a much bigger overall weight of importance than an issue about a slight breach of ethics in journalism.
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Puncture Repair





  • #38
  • Posted: 05/22/2015 11:37
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Saoirse wrote:
I obviously agree facts shouldn't be distorted in any way... but there's a big difference between distortion and pulling things out of thin air. Yes, games aren't inherently sexist, but there's plenty of sexist themes, imagery and motivation rampant throughout video games. What I take issue with the above paragraphs is that it seems to be saying that she was highlighting a non-essential or even non-existant issue, or that somehow talking about sexism in video games was counter-productive (you can't work to extinguish the fires if you don't recognize how they're being lit), and Im also geting a none-too-subtle vibe in previous posts that the much wider-reaching issues being brought up both by Sarkesian and the gamer-gate controversy about sexism in entertainment (or discussion about any particular entertainment) at large are not to be taken too seriously cause afterall it's "just video games", but that may just be due to a lack of overall clarity.


I don't understand how when I said her more recent videos are 'productive' translates to me saying that talking about sexism at all in video games is 'counter-productive'. Of course we need critics of the media, I've never argued against that. People care about the things they enjoy, and when those things are attacked with hallow claims, people are going to dismiss that criticism all-together, we all do it.

If everything I'm saying is going to be reduced to

Everyone in this thread wrote:
Rape is bad, but.....


then there's no point trying to be listened to.
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SquishypuffDave



Gender: Male
Age: 33
Australia

  • #39
  • Posted: 05/22/2015 11:42
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Happymeal wrote:
Yeah, fuck people making games they want to make. Adhere to my agenda!


You seem to be scared of something, and I can't tell what it is.

In terms of the influence of media on self-image and gender expectations, I don't really have any statistics to link you. I just trust my own social intelligence. There are clearly things you're okay with in games that I am not, and the reasons they upset me are related to feelings of empathy for people in my life. All of those examples of sexism I listed are things I find really troubling, and I've seen how women I know have had their self esteem damaged by constant exposure to those sorts of messages in all forms of media. I've seen how the "romantic partner as reward for work" narrative has led to resentment and unhealthy expectations in guys I know. I find it unbelievable that you can't see what's wrong with that shit.

Happymeal wrote:
Do you expect someone to able to properly portray a point of view that they do not have.


That's what a writer's job is... so yes, I expect writers to be able to write more than one character.

In regards to the idea that games wouldn't sell as well without sexism, I guess I'm just naively optimistic.
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Happymeal





  • #40
  • Posted: 05/22/2015 11:52
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SquishypuffDave wrote:
But this all turned out to be false, right? Now that it has been established that the claim was a conjecture that didn't line up with the actual series of events, is it not possible that those allegations were motivated by something other than "journalism ethics"?

"The people sending those threatening messages aren't true gamergaters." That's called the no true Scotsman fallacy. A bunch of angry gamers make unfounded accusations about a female game designer, and a bunch of angry gamers send her threatening messages at the same time. Do you honestly think there's no overlap there?


- At this point, it's irrelevant whether those claims were false or not because websites have updated their ethics policies and many of the journalists (male and female) who were under fire for being corrupt left due to the new ethics policies. If that doesn't prove that Gamergate was about journalism ethics, I don't know what does. Just to clarify, the Zoey quinn scandal is more complicated than that. Zoey quinn subsequently lied about harassment from wizardchan, censored several critics (by making false DMCA claims), possibly lied about being hacked and doxxed, got a female organization doxxed which attempted to bring female creators into the industry (like you want to happen. Evidence for this here: http://wiki.gamergate.me/index.php?titl...esTFYC.png I'm in school right now so I can't send you to the original reddit post), and several other extremely unethical actions.

- I never stated that these people sending messages are or aren't true Gamergators, you have literally strawmanned me. I said there were bad and good apples involved in the movement and that the majority of it is about journalism ethics. I don't deny that some people who may support gamergate and concurrently send threats. These people must be stopped and they are bad people, but what's more important is journalism ethics to the consumer. GG is a bunch of consumer who want nothing more but media which isn't created due to conflicts of interest. GG denounces all people who send threats, but it's really difficult as not only a misunderstood and misrepresented movement, but also one with no central leadership to get your viewpoint heard by the majority.


Last edited by Happymeal on 05/22/2015 11:54; edited 1 time in total
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