Issues in Video Games and Entertainment - Lounge

Saoirse

Puncture Repair wrote:

I don't understand how when I said her more recent videos are 'productive' translates to me saying that talking about sexism at all in video games is 'counter-productive'. Of course we need critics of the media, I've never argued against that. People care about the things they enjoy, and when those things are attacked with hallow claims, people are going to dismiss that criticism all-together, we all do it.

If everything I'm saying is going to be reduced to

then there's no point trying to be listened to.

Okay the problem Im getting here is that you seem to be alluding to that her talking about sexism in video games were all "hallow claims" or if she was making everything up, which she wasn't (some facts were distorted, yes, some though just highlighted some blatantly (though yes still subjectively) sexist and degrading video game tropes), and that bringing up the controversial issue about how women are treated in video games was counter-productive, but I think again that's just a clarity issue. I also took issue with a previous post that seemed to dismiss all this as if the core issues being brought up-and discussed in gamer-gate were somehow minor because it was in the realm of discussion about video-games, and that somehow it's disconnected with real issues about sexism and how women are treated in different realms of the media, but again maybe just an overall dis-communication.

And yes again Applerill probably didn't put it the best way but again what irked me with the above post and others is that there seems to be a reason to treat some slight distortions of fact(and there are plenty, PLENTY of distortions made by those who are blatantly against Sarkessian) as a reason to belittle or de-emphasize some of the problems she's been highlighting.

Saoirse

Okay Im going to put it out there that there should be a thread about how women are treated in video games (or about different controversial video-game-related issues) as this is really just all about "who was right" in gamer-gate and we seem to be fighting each other more so than arguing the actual real issues brought up by gamer-gate or elsewhere (sorry, Puncture).

Applerill
Autistic Princess <3

Gender: Female
Age: 30
Location: Chicago

SquishypuffDave wrote:

the reasons they upset me are related to feelings of empathy for people in my life. All of those examples of sexism I listed are things I find really troubling, and I've seen how women I know have had their self esteem damaged by constant exposure to those sorts of messages in all forms of media. I've seen how the "romantic partner as reward for work" narrative has led to resentment and unhealthy expectations in guys I know. I find it unbelievable that you can't see what's wrong with that shit.

I love you, Dave <3

This is what it all boils down to. When we're talking about feminism and "social justice", we're fighting for real people (female, racial minority and GLBT) who often go through hell every day just because of where they were placed in life.

When you guys are talking about "ethics in gaming journalism", you're basically fighting for pixellated toys and an echo chamber to scream from. This is exactly what I meant by "babies".

Happymeal

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You seem to be scared of something, and I can't tell what it is.

I'm frightened that art will be controlled by ideologies. That's not good. This is because unless a game fits x create or what one group perceives as "morally correct", then it's not a good game.

Quote:

In terms of the influence of media on self-image and gender expectations, I don't really have any statistics to link you. I just trust my own social intelligence. There are clearly things you're okay with in games that I am not, and the reasons they upset me are related to feelings of empathy for people in my life. All of those examples of sexism I listed are things I find really troubling, and I've seen how women I know have had their self esteem damaged by constant exposure to those sorts of messages in all forms of media. I've seen how the "romantic partner as reward for work" narrative has led to resentment and unhealthy expectations in guys I know. I find it unbelievable that you can't see what's wrong with that shit.

I never stated what was wrong or right. Get it through your head that I am not making moral judgements. Whether what's inside of art is wrong or right is irrelevant to me because audiences have preferences. I think we shouldn't force ideologies on people, especially when it comes to expression. When we start judging art based on our morals, we get very dangerous situations where people fear to express themselves.

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That's what a writer's job is... so yes, I expect writers to be able to write more than one character.

And some writers do that and others don't. You're acting as if every writer is not writing different perspectives. That's not true, it's just that when a large group of people happen to have a similar perception and create art based on that, the art tends to be similar. This is the common case of "if this art doesn't inve my perception, it's bad art" which is completely untrue. NWA, Geto Boys, Canibus, Camp Lo, etc. have all created art from a perception that isn't my own, yet I find it to be brilliant. You shouldn't base art on your perception, but the art itself.

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In regards to the idea that games wouldn't sell as well without sexism, I guess I'm just naively optimistic.

Once again, you have yet to prove that it's sexist. It seems pretty hypocritical to tout on about sexuality being good and then complain when a character expresses sexuality in a way you don't like. Sexism is saying "women shouldn't make video games", not "women should make video games the way they want to". Everyone is saying the latter, but people are going to have self - interest for the most part. If you're arguing against people creating art the way they want to, then fine, go ahead, but don't attempt to argue that by veiling it in moral authority.

Saoirse

Also remember that women make up around 40 percent of gamers (statistics vary around that number), and that number's actually decreased from the previous years. Why, it's not concrete, but many female gamers have said they have been turned off by on-line interactive games (World of Warcraft etc) often for the targeted abuse they get on-line, from misogynistic rants to being asked to "perform" (yeah you can do little dances in those games and such, not that many people willingly want to) from male gamers. Video Game Participants are nowhere near as overwhelming male as it's reputed to be, even if the vast majority who make them are. There are nuances but is it surprising when there are issues about how women are treated when there's a big demographic dichtomy between those who make the games and those that play it?

And yes thanks Dave, that was a very human post that actually got across that it is important to address how these women are portrayed and how that affects those who look up to these characters when playing these games, and that somehow forgetting these concerns and putting more emphasis on the semantics & tactics one person used to bring these issues forward is not at all commendable in the slightest. Again, maybe we should have an "Issues in Video Games and Entertainment" thread, then again I don't know how that will keep the discussion on main concerns about what actuallys happens in video games over the controversies about the people who talk about them publicly, but it's worth a shot.

Puncture Repair

Saoirse wrote:

Again, maybe we should have an "Issues in Video Games and Entertainment" thread, then again I don't know how that will keep the discussion on main concerns about what actuallys happens in video games over the controversies about the people who talk about them publicly, but it's worth a shot.

Good suggestion, I've split the topic.

SquishypuffDave

Gender: Male
Age: 33

Happymeal wrote:

I never stated that these people sending messages are or aren't true Gamergators, you have literally strawmanned me.

Happymeal wrote:

These threats are typically made by anonymous trolls who have no affiliation to gamergate

Happymeal wrote:

There aren't a lot of bad apples associating themselves with gamergate, the media portrays them as part of gamergate.

As for those particular allegations:
http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-be...1624707346

Saoirse

Okay obv what one finds "sexist" is subjective, but when in games a women has no role except to be rescued by a male hero or when you get rewards for beating up or solicitating sex from women, how can one possibly take that as a positive portrayel of women in video games?

Well if we're talking another oft-dismissed and debatable form of what can be called "art", Porn is another medium that is largely directed and produced by men and often portray an entirely masculine fantasy about sex, where often women are physically perfect objects of lust to be dominated by the male partner and serve them in any way the man (well, the director) wishes. And since many young males often have easier access to porn these days, it can put a very damaging and negative idea of how an intimate sexual relationship should act like between him and a female partner (if we're talking a cis-hetero boy, though there are also legimitate issues about how gay&lesbian (esp the latter, which in porn media are often two straight women play-acting a male director's idea of lesbian sex) sexual relationships in porn are portrayed). And porn is often reputed to be entirely consumed by males, but in fact there is a large number of women who browse porn sites, there are female porn directors & producers and many times whenever a legitamite issue is raised by a female consumer about how they're being portrayed, it's often easily dismissed, either as they have no right to "intrude" on what (they think should be) an entirely male-dominated realm of media or that "It's our art! Make your own!" is a cop-out for any in-depth discussion about the actual content of said porn films.

Comparing the reaction to Video Games to the reaction to Porn may seem extreme on the surface, but the issues both raise and how many are treated when they speak up against the status quo are very, very similar. And both need to be taken seriously cause they bring up real-life concerns about how genders are portrayed and how they play as a role-model to those who consume the media, not just dismissed because somehow the medium's often ballyhooed reputation belittles the far more wide-reaching social and moral issues they both often bring up.

Happymeal

SquishypuffDave wrote:

As for those particular allegations:
http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-be...1624707346

My statement was that "there aren't a lot of bad apples in gamergate". Yes, there are bad apples, but they aren't a lot. They're no where near the amount reported is what I'm saying. I never once stated that ALL threats are not gamergate related because I'm sure belligerent people will step out of bounds, but that's a huge minority who are typically denounced when they partake in these actions.

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MxqSwzFy5w this video explains my view point on sexism in video games pretty well btw.

Saoirse wrote:

Okay obv what one finds "sexist" is subjective, but when in games a women has no role except to be rescued by a male hero or when you get rewards for beating up or solicitating sex from women, how can one possibly take that as a positive portrayel of women in video games?

Yes, but that isn't necessarily sexism unless it's solely happening to women. GTA V is an example of a game that often receives the criticism of being sexist, but this is a fallacy. You have the option to kill whoever the fuck you want in GTA and get rewards by killing everyone. That's not to say I think this game is good. I hate this type of "kill everyone" type game, but it's particularly far from sexism. Provide some examples of your viewpoint btw, it really helps people comprehend it when you provide evidence.

Applerill
Autistic Princess <3

Gender: Female
Age: 30
Location: Chicago

I have a complicated relationship to porn as a “medium”, because it’s structured very differently in the BBW community that I grew up with. Because the scene started as a sort of civil rights movement before being known as a sexual fetish (and also because most major BBW sites have been historically run by women), it’s almost like the objectification in BBW porn truly was a form of female empowerment. If "non-shemale-shaming" transgender porn catches on, it might take on much of the same perspective.

I don’t think it’s right to condemn porn as a medium, because I think it really can be beautiful if done from a loving perspective (see: Taxi Zum Klo). But I am absolutely appalled by sites like XVideos that glorify the shaming of the models they feature. It really is the most disgusting thing, and as Film Crit Hulk once pointed out, “WE ARE BORDERING ON A NEAR-VICTORIAN DICHOTOMY BETWEEN "PROPRIETY" AND THE UNSAVORY RESULTS OF THAT PROPRIETY."

It really is just like video games, because while it can be such a beautiful medium, it seems like so much of it is just meant to keep the patriarchal power structure going, and that really saddens me.