Issues in Video Games and Entertainment - Lounge

Saoirse

Okay this argument has completely gone off from the issues and turned into people just being defensive or taking potshots at each other's intelligence, so maybeeeee it's just time to move on.

Anyways I guess in a slightly related story the issue of kind of sexist-based ageism has turned up in hollywood again, I donno if anybody's heard the story about Maggie Gyllenhaal and saying she was turned down for the role of a romantic lead because she was "too old"... to play opposite a 55-year-old man. It does bring up the story of how older male actors often have love intrests that are twice their age, but rarely is it vice versa. And it's certainly rare to find women over 35 with any signficant roles in major movies, often at best getting the occasional leading role in smaller films with limited (and in distributor's eyes, "niche") audiences. Thoughts on the issue (not on how each user presents their arguments)?

Applerill
Autistic Princess <3

Gender: Female
Age: 30
Location: Chicago

Am I a good counterpoint to this, Max?

But yeah, this is a really good point, especially in the commercial Hollywood system. And it obviously all starts with women being treated as props rather than serious characters. Get rid of that roadblock, and the battle's half over.

SquishypuffDave

Gender: Male
Age: 33

Happymeal wrote:

In regards to this situation, this video will put the gamergater viewpoint into perspective better than I can https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wt8k-3xD5s

Got about ten minutes into it, but I had to stop because it left such a bad taste in my mouth. Look at those examples he lists of "articles that have nothing to do with games". They all clearly do, they're about the human aspects of games, the messages they send, treating them like art, etc. See what Applerill was saying about gamergators not being able to handle social criticism that is already given to every other medium? Interpreting it as a personal attack, a calculated campaign to make gamers look bad. This kind of response is what makes gamers look bad.

While I'm open to the possibility of the accusations about Zoe being true, the video comes off as conspiracy theory. There are a lot of conclusions being jumped to and the personal nature of these accusations just make this whole thing seem really distasteful.

Happymeal wrote:

I do not adhere to ideologies.

This is true of no-one that has ever lived.

SquishypuffDave

Gender: Male
Age: 33

Yo dawg, someone heard I like nutshells, so they put a nutshell around my opinion so I can post my opinion in a nutshell.

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Happymeal

Quote:

Got about ten minutes into it, but I had to stop because it left such a bad taste in my mouth. Look at those examples he lists of "articles that have nothing to do with games". They all clearly do, they're about the human aspects of games, the messages they send, treating them like art, etc. See what Applerill was saying about gamergators not being able to handle social criticism that is already given to every other medium? Interpreting it as a personal attack, a calculated campaign to make gamers look bad. This kind of response is what makes gamers look bad.

Applerill says a lot of stuff I disagree with and so I still don't see it. And of course people interpret attacks on their identity as personal. Gamers, whether male, female, minority, or whatever, identify as people who love games because they are fun to play, because these games give them a meritocracy like no other, and because people accept you based on your love of the games. They don't love the games because of what gender each character is, what race each character is, etc. like you guys do. Gamers are gonna take issue when you invade a space and attempt to fill it with ideological bullshit. And while most gamers are fine with criticism, utilizing the media unethically as a means to push your ideology is just wrong. To top it off, the journalists that push this agenda subsequently state that gamers (their fuckin audience) are dead, that they don't even like or care about video games, and etc. Do you not see how gamers as a group of people would take issue with this? The problem isn't with gamers, it's with people like you. And I'm fine taking a strong stance in what I believe.

Quote:

While I'm open to the possibility of the accusations about Zoe being true, the video comes off as conspiracy theory. There are a lot of conclusions being jumped to and the personal nature of these accusations just make this whole thing seem really distasteful.

Conspiracy theory does not equate to being wrong. Personally, I view things as series of events and all that matters is whether the facts correlate with what happened. I want to clarify that I'm not the type of person who really cares about the media, especially gaming media. I had rarely utilized it previously and still don't utilize much gaming media. However, even as someone who didn't possess much interest in this, I noticed unethical behavior. I saw the evidence and I listened to both sides of the argument and yet came to the conclusion, as a neutral person, that there was indeed unethical behavior involved. Am I saying this proves anything? No. However, it's quite obvious the dichotomy between our priorities. You care about pushing agenda, I care about ethical behavior.

Quote:

This is true of no-one that has ever lived.

Well, perhaps you think so, but that's because you're an ideologue who believes everyone else must also be one. There's nothing wrong with being an ideologue (well except everything that your ideology tends to cause), but don't accuse everyone else of being one solely because of your perspective.

Saoirse

For the love of gawd here please stop people. All your doing is playing the indignant defensive my-shit-stinks-less blowhard where the actual issue at hand is starting to feel like a footnote in this war of battling egos. Again, maybeeeee time to get off gamergate cause no one really seems to have anything new to add, we can talk about hollywood sexism or something else or... really who cares go I guess Im knee deep in the same shit and complaining about the smell, so go write endless posts of the I-know-what-you-are-but-what-am-I variety or sth who knows gotta go make a living.

Happymeal

Saoirse wrote:

For the love of gawd here please stop people. All your doing is playing the indignant defensive my-shit-stinks-less blowhard where the actual issue at hand is starting to feel like a footnote in this war of battling egos.

I'm talking about what I find to be the biggest issue related to this thread. Perhaps you disagree, but I attempted to engage you on a point previously and you didn't respond which, to me, seems like the biggest way to cease discussion of what you believe to be the actual issue. Just to clarify, here was a response to you earlier:

Happymeal wrote:

Saoirse wrote:

Okay obv what one finds "sexist" is subjective, but when in games a women has no role except to be rescued by a male hero or when you get rewards for beating up or solicitating sex from women, how can one possibly take that as a positive portrayel of women in video games?

Yes, but that isn't necessarily sexism unless it's solely happening to women. GTA V is an example of a game that often receives the criticism of being sexist, but this is a fallacy. You have the option to kill whoever the fuck you want in GTA and get rewards by killing everyone. That's not to say I think this game is good. I hate this type of "kill everyone" type game, but it's particularly far from sexism. Provide some examples of your viewpoint btw, it really helps people comprehend it when you provide evidence.

Applerill
Autistic Princess <3

Gender: Female
Age: 30
Location: Chicago

You know what game all you kids should be playing?

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(Really, it's a good game, and brings back nostalgia to me)

Necharsian
Best Ever User

Gender: Male

I don't think the argument that GTA is sexist is because you can kill women, but more that all women in the game are just meaningless objects. and the ones you can interact with are just for fucking.

Saoirse

^ thank you, Necharsian, although I hope that was just a general (very useful) critique and not taking the bait. Now can we finally just movveeee on... (and please don't drudge up more responses or indignant accusations as an excuse to flog a dead horse even further. Oh perhaps that's just baiting more, I donno, lose-lose. LET'S ALL GET DRUNK INSTEAD).