My Criteria For Art - Music Diaries - Forums : Best Ever Albums

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

Oh no - meaning when I would say stuff like dude you have They Might Be Giants next to XYZ artist/album I think was far superior/any time I "challenged" or put into question any methodologies you may have done.

Now that I see a bigger picture, I'm less up in arms.

And from our continued conversation, I think you realize I was doing it as an internet friend and not a troll. That's my hope at least.

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

triple post!
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Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

Last edited by AfterHours on 03/22/2019 04:08; edited 2 times in total

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

Hat trick!
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

Last edited by AfterHours on 03/22/2019 04:10; edited 1 time in total

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

sethmadsen wrote:

Oh no - meaning when I would say stuff like dude you have They Might Be Giants next to XYZ artist/album I think was far superior/any time I "challenged" or put into question any methodologies you may have done.

Now that I see a bigger picture, I'm less up in arms.

And from our continued conversation, I think you realize I was doing it as an internet friend and not a troll. That's my hope at least.

Oh yeah, no worries. Goes both ways. We've had a few minor hiccups at times but nothing that was a big deal for more than a reply or two. Art is very important to people ... can be a volatile subject and usually carries with it a good share of emotional connection... Being challenged isnt usually a problem and I rarely mind explaining my point of view (some rare exceptions). Most of our discussions have been totally fine, and even when they crossed over a little too close to (temparary) hostility, it was always just that (temporary). I dont think either of us are ever trying to be assholes for the sake of it. I think we're both willing to sew anything back up if it gets a little out of hand so there are no issues I would be likely to hold onto, as I am confident that will take place and I think we both have good intentions.
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

Likewise.

mianfei

Gender: Male
Age: 46
Location: Carlton North

AfterHours wrote:

Ive been tweaking and adding to my "Challenge Ratings" list, thus whittling down the "undecideds".

If anyone has any feedback on "this or that challenge rating is too high or low for _____ album" (etc) please feel free. Im sure there are still a number that are a little off, maybe even some that are more than that.

I certainly do, and in my opinion quite a large proportion of the albums listed are off-line based on my own personal experience. I have a suspicion that there is a pattern to these “off-line” challenge ratings, and the existence of such a pattern may suggest some inherent subjectivity in my perceptions of whether to investigate a recommended album further if I feel I am not grasping it.

Albums whose challenge factor I feel is too low:

— Songs of Leonard Cohen – Leonard Cohen
— Are You Experienced? - Jimi Hendrix
— Dummy – Portishead (less so than others here, but still more challenging in atmosphere than a “3.5”)
— Eli And The 13th Confession - Laura Nyro
— Five Leaves Left - Nick Drake
— Spleen & Ideal - Dead Can Dance (far too low)
— So Tonight That I Might See - Mazzy Star
— Rickie Lee Jones, Pirates - Rickie Lee Jones
— Miss America - Mary Margaret O'Hara
— Just For A Day - Slowdive
— America, Fare Forward Voyagers - John Fahey
— Yeti - Amon Düül II
— When I Was A Boy - Jane Siberry (this is the ultimate case: I have owned this for a quarter century without managing to grasp it can feel it is almost a “taste not worth acquiring”. “7.0” or “7.5” would be more reasonable although a few tracks are less tough)

Albums whose challenge factor I feel is too high:

— Tago Mago, Ege Bamyasi, Future Days - Can
— Lorca - Tim Buckley (much easier to appreciate than Astral Weeks)
— Post to Wire - Heather Duby (some element of difficulty but extremely easy vis-à-vis When I Was a Boy
— United States of America - United States of America
— Robin Holcomb - Robin Holcomb
— Shooting at the Moon - Kevin Ayers
— Crazy Rhythms - Feelies (as easy to get into as Murmur for sure)

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

mianfei wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Ive been tweaking and adding to my "Challenge Ratings" list, thus whittling down the "undecideds".

If anyone has any feedback on "this or that challenge rating is too high or low for _____ album" (etc) please feel free. Im sure there are still a number that are a little off, maybe even some that are more than that.

I certainly do, and in my opinion quite a large proportion of the albums listed are off-line based on my own personal experience. I have a suspicion that there is a pattern to these “off-line” challenge ratings, and the existence of such a pattern may suggest some inherent subjectivity in my perceptions of whether to investigate a recommended album further if I feel I am not grasping it.

Albums whose challenge factor I feel is too low:

— Songs of Leonard Cohen – Leonard Cohen
— Are You Experienced? - Jimi Hendrix
— Dummy – Portishead (less so than others here, but still more challenging in atmosphere than a “3.5”)
— Eli And The 13th Confession - Laura Nyro
— Five Leaves Left - Nick Drake
— Spleen & Ideal - Dead Can Dance (far too low)
— So Tonight That I Might See - Mazzy Star
— Rickie Lee Jones, Pirates - Rickie Lee Jones
— Miss America - Mary Margaret O'Hara
— Just For A Day - Slowdive
— America, Fare Forward Voyagers - John Fahey
— Yeti - Amon Düül II
— When I Was A Boy - Jane Siberry (this is the ultimate case: I have owned this for a quarter century without managing to grasp it can feel it is almost a “taste not worth acquiring”. “7.0” or “7.5” would be more reasonable although a few tracks are less tough)

Albums whose challenge factor I feel is too high:

— Tago Mago, Ege Bamyasi, Future Days - Can
— Lorca - Tim Buckley (much easier to appreciate than Astral Weeks)
— Post to Wire - Heather Duby (some element of difficulty but extremely easy vis-à-vis When I Was a Boy
— United States of America - United States of America
— Robin Holcomb - Robin Holcomb
— Shooting at the Moon - Kevin Ayers
— Crazy Rhythms - Feelies (as easy to get into as Murmur for sure)

Thanks for your input, maybe some of those are a little off (0.5). Realize too that one has to ask oneself: compared to what? In other words, how much more challenging can, say, Cohen be ... in relation to the 8s, 8.5s, 9s (and if Low, RHP etc are rated ____) not to mention Townes Van Zandt and Drake's Pink Moon as "easier" prerequisites. So there is a whole line of factors to consider. The ratings are not in a vaccuum but are (attempted to be) made in alignment with all else. But yes, any of those might be a little off.

Also realize that no single person is going to agree with all of them. Usually people more easily warm to certain genres than others. Overall, the general criteria for the challenge ratings is (primarily):

(a) Structural/compositional complexity (the more complex, usually the more challenging) ...and how reliant or not the work is on preconceived notions of structure (hence freer form works tend to rate towards the higher end).
(b) How alien (from mainstream) the expressiveness is

Not sure if that will change your mind on any of those but those are the main logic behind the selections.
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

Further...

Some more points to think with:

-This current challenge ratings scale is still in its earlier stages of development so I do want to reiterate that I am not necessarily dismissing your suggestions, but that I will consider them upon any revisits of those works. The only one that I would probably dismiss outright is Spleen and Ideal being "far too low". Maybe a 4.5 or 5, but most of it is pretty accessible especially after its initial tracks. It's not going to get much higher than that when alike, but more challenging works like Dead Magic and Desertshore, or (instrumentally or in terms of ethos, emotionality) Irrlicht, Popol Vuh, Black Tape for a Blue Girl, offer more difficult content.

-Yeti very well could be 6 or 6.5. When I Was A Boy is a very tough one, so I might agree with you (maybe 6 or 6.5) ... it finds a strange balance between accessible and avant-garde (in some ways, like Kate Bush's better albums)

-The truly challenging albums (relative to the whole scale, all music) is a threshold crossed at roughly "5.0" (and starts taking shape around 3.5 or 4) so try not to think of 5 as an "easy" score just because it's only 1/2 way to a 10. Remember I am rating them relative to the Trout Mask Replica's and Twin Infinitive's of the world ... and in Jazz, perhaps Anthony Braxton's Sax Improvisations Series F and Cecil Taylor's Unit Structures and Sun Ra's Atlantis ... or in Classical the likes of Wagner's most challenging works or Morton Feldmen, Elliot Carter and so forth ...
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

mianfei

Gender: Male
Age: 46
Location: Carlton North

AfterHours wrote:

Further...

Some more points to think with:

-This current challenge ratings scale is still in its earlier stages of development so I do want to reiterate that I am not necessarily dismissing your suggestions, but that I will consider them upon any revisits of those works. The only one that I would probably dismiss outright is Spleen and Ideal being "far too low". Maybe a 4.5 or 5, but most of it is pretty accessible especially after its initial tracks. It's not going to get much higher than that when alike, but more challenging works like Dead Magic and Desertshore, or (instrumentally or in terms of ethos, emotionality) Irrlicht, Popol Vuh, Black Tape for a Blue Girl, offer more difficult content.

-Yeti very well could be 6 or 6.5. When I Was A Boy is a very tough one, so I might agree with you (maybe 6 or 6.5) ... it finds a strange balance between accessible and avant-garde (in some ways, like Kate Bush's better albums)

-The truly challenging albums (relative to the whole scale, all music) is a threshold crossed at roughly "5.0" (and starts taking shape around 3.5 or 4) so try not to think of 5 as an "easy" score just because it's only 1/2 way to a 10. Remember I am rating them relative to the Trout Mask Replicas and Twin Infinitives of the world ... and in Jazz, perhaps Anthony Braxton's Sax Improvisations Series F and Cecil Taylor's Unit Structures and Sun Ra's Atlantis ... or in Classical the likes of Wagner's most challenging works or Morton Feldmen, Elliot Carter and so forth ...

Thanks for your prompt reply – I meant to reply much earlier but was on a restricted computer in a public library when I made my original attempt!

If what you are saying about Spleen and Ideal is true, it would imply that all the other artists mentioned alongside it would need to have their challenge factor increased somewhat. Personal experience with them is very limited but what I do know about Popol Vuh certainly supports the contention of my preceding sentence.

For what it’s worth, I have bought and listened to Unit Structures and did not find it so difficult as you are suggesting. It does seem to me that I would find Irrlicht or Black Tape for a Blue Girl more challenging than Cecil Taylor.

I often think the reason for these differences relates to background. I am well aware that whereas most people who get to listen to these avant-garde music works lived their entire life in inner city academic communities. However, I lived my childhood in quiet, highly conservative, low-density Melbourne suburbs wholly closed off from cutting-edge musical trends, and like to believe that this influence from my childhood shapes how I experience listening even 22 years after leaving such an environment. What I have often thought to be the case is that to reach audiences in such low-density environments as suburban Australia (some rural areas in Asia and tropical mountain are more densely populated than Australian outer suburbs) leads to a focus on loudness, humour or sparse production to make songs as catchy as possible – it is striking how catchy the songs of leading Australian pop groups were when I was a teenager.

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

I think you could simplify it down to this:

Easy=nobody is shitting on a saxophone, guitar, or piano.
Hard=somebody, if not lots of people, are shitting on a saxophone, guitar, or piano.

Laughing

Ok... I'll take this seriously someday. I'm an adult, I swear.