Remove one from the top 100, and add one. Which do you pick?

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AfterHours



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  • #31
  • Posted: 03/21/2017 08:13
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sethmadsen wrote:
I agree with everything afterhours said and revolver94.

I feel like out of all your examples, The Velvet Underground is probably best fitting to what I was looking for. To me at least I feel like their impact on culture/the breadth of their influence is just as great as The Beatles, yet in their time they weren't as distributed. And I'm not just talking about popularity for the sake of popularity, I'm talking about impact on culture/breadth of influence/lasting impact on musical history. I think that was already understood, but wanted to make it clear.

And I knew that musicians old and new sometimes don't get attention until much later, but a true Van Gogh instance (where they go from not being known at all, to probably the most known) really is applicable to The Velvet Underground.

I will say that a few artists you mentioned are still a bit niche, but maybe that's just me and my limited understanding of the world of music.

Thing is, Beethoven, Mozart (don't know about Schubert) performed/directed at the Musikverein in Vienna - kind of sign you "made" it and are a cultural impact. Händel was also in his realm of impact in London/across Europe.

I mean I know Beethoven wasn't liked by some because he was one of the first (the first?) to write music that meant something to him, not something nobility requested from him. So I'm sure that upset many.


Schubert was not particularly well known in his time (incredible really). Seems unlikely he would've been invited to the Musikverein, though if you find otherwise then I stand corrected. My point about Beethoven was simply that a very good but far less impressive composer such as Hummel was considered his artistic superior, which is utterly ridiculous of course and would never in a million years happen today -- but looking at this silly Overall Chart, is actually not nearly as ridiculous as the likes of Coldplay's A Rush of Blood to the Head (which is an alright, moderately effective album, but does not stand out in any way emotionally, conceptually, creativity, etc) ranking higher than, say, Charles Mingus' Black Saint and the Sinner Lady (an all-time, supreme masterpiece the likes of which has never happened in the history of art, and a work that even surpasses most of Beethoven's greatest works). My other point was that a majority of Beethoven's very greatest late works were generally dismissed in their time as incomprehensible, passed of as evidence of the composer's madness, which is similar to Van Gogh and, say, how Trout Mask Replica was (and still, though to a lesser extent) received by many.

Beethoven wasn't really the first to compose for himself, but he was much more overt about it and you certainly would be correct to think he did so in a most revolutionary way -- the first truly "alternative/independent" musician/composer, that's for sure. Mozart, Bach and Haydn had intimacy and personal conviction and emotional depth in their music (in spades) but it can be just below the surface or disguised within the noble or pleasant sheen. Or, with Bach, his own dauntless religious devotion is very prevalent in his works, the transcendent heavenly vocals (of his Vocal works) the perfect structure, Natural Order and logic -- an offering of perfection to God (of all his works). Also, with Bach, his most overtly personal, introspective, heart-on-sleeve works are in his compositions for solo instrument (such as Cello Suites and Violin Partitas/Sonatas). Often in Mozart's case, "hidden" in the flippant emotional dichotomy of two pretty (but contrary, though somehow harmonizing) melodies/themes (or voices). Haydn is his musical forebear and similar in that regard, but not quite as genius or compositionally and thematically extensive about it. But even more so to the point, Mozart was composing his Requiem for himself (1791) and, his opera Don Giovanni (1787) is undoubtedly a very personal attempt to confront the death of his father -- both prior to Beethoven's 8th Piano Sonata (Pathetique, 1798).

Re: niche ... I agree, though I don't feel they're particularly more niche than Van Gogh was as a painter. Over time, history has been quite kind to Van Gogh, as he has become quite famous of course, but it's not because his paintings are "mainstream" by any stretch of the imagination. But also, painting is a more erudite community, on average, than pop/rock music fans. Painting/visual art communities are much more likely to be drawn to obscure works (than the average pop/rock fan), hence a major reason how a painter as strange as Van Gogh has become so adored as an all time favorite of so many, and did so fairly rapidly following his death (gradual momentum started in 1890s and progressed more rapidly in the 1910s).
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Last edited by AfterHours on 03/22/2017 02:07; edited 2 times in total
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AfterHours



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  • #32
  • Posted: 03/21/2017 20:22
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Oh, didn't realize until I saw your Chart of the Day, that you rank Rush of Blood to the Head in your own top 100 Silenced

Oh well, maybe not the best example for you then!
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



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  • #33
  • Posted: 03/22/2017 04:39
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eyezayzay wrote:
Cut Appetite for Destruction for Lonerism.
Even though it's #101, LOL.


Hehe. Good choice nonetheless.
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



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  • #34
  • Posted: 03/22/2017 05:10
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AfterHours wrote:
Oh, didn't realize until I saw your Chart of the Day, that you rank Rush of Blood to the Head in your own top 100 Silenced

Oh well, maybe not the best example for you then!


Top of my 2000s list. That album can be quite a bore after all these years and actually I completely agree with everything you are saying.

Why Coldplay makes my lists at all or u2 or nirvana, or even Beatles, is because the pop aesthetic they have is appealing to me. Not because I think their aesthetic is superior... if that makes any sense.

Aesthetically, death and all his friends is the only coldplay album I still find intriguing.
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AfterHours



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  • #35
  • Posted: 03/22/2017 08:50
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sethmadsen wrote:
AfterHours wrote:
Oh, didn't realize until I saw your Chart of the Day, that you rank Rush of Blood to the Head in your own top 100 Silenced

Oh well, maybe not the best example for you then!


Top of my 2000s list. That album can be quite a bore after all these years and actually I completely agree with everything you are saying.

Why Coldplay makes my lists at all or u2 or nirvana, or even Beatles, is because the pop aesthetic they have is appealing to me. Not because I think their aesthetic is superior... if that makes any sense.

Aesthetically, death and all his friends is the only coldplay album I still find intriguing.


Okay cool, thanks for the clarification, fair enough. Coldplay have their moments even for me (Clocks particularly, easily their finest song. Yellow and various songs from the same album have nice progressions and faintly mesmerizing melodies). I do think a band such as Talk Talk with Spirit of Eden is the much more creative, brilliant and stunning example of the fundamental idea, feel and emotional/conceptual purpose of Coldplay's music, presumably adopted from Radiohead's The Bends, and in part, OK Computer. I like early U2 quite a bit (Joshua Tree, misc songs such as One). Everything I've heard by them for the last several years was not my cup of tea at all though -- all facile, mundane, standard radio fare as far as I am concerned, but totally fine if you dig them as much as you do; no harm in that. The Beatles are very overrated imo, but not without significant merits (Sgt Pepper, Abbey Road, sporadic more experimental songs like TMK, Revolution 9, Strawberry Fields Forever...). Nirvana was somewhat of a one-trick pony (exaggeration, but has enough truth to it) but were very good at it. Nevermind is a melodic bulldozer (in a great way, outside of the tendency towards formulaic repetition, and not nearly the spontaneous, ferocious immediacy as a band like Husker Du or Fugazi -- I wish they would've brought the immediacy of Bleach to the songs of Nevermind or just didn't over-produce/over-polish them...). I might prefer In Utero even if I have the feeling Cobain really wished he would've made an album like, say, Girl Band's Holding Hands With Jamie.
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Greendonut227




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  • #36
  • Posted: 03/22/2017 11:21
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I would take out Back in Black and add The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady. The top 100 could use some more jazz!
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Fischman
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  • #37
  • Posted: 03/22/2017 14:34
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Greendonut227 wrote:
The top 100 could use some more jazz!


Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
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Onater



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  • #38
  • Posted: 03/22/2017 17:51
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Greendonut227 wrote:
I would take out Back in Black and add The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady. The top 100 could use some more jazz!


Wait, is Black Saint and the Sinner Lady seriously not in the top 100? I had always just assumed that it was.

Wtf, how is it all the way down at 149.
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craola
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  • #39
  • Posted: 03/22/2017 19:47
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some artists not in the top 100:

aphex twin
autechre
bjork
boards of canada
burial
can
charles mingus
depeche mode
flying lotus
nina simone
slowdive
talk talk

generally, not enough women, jazz, electronic, hip hop, etc.

the overall list looks like something a bunch of white dads threw together. i wonder what the demographics for the overall use of this site actually look like... beyond the forum-goers here, that is.
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AfterHours



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  • #40
  • Posted: 03/22/2017 20:42
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Onater wrote:
Wait, is Black Saint and the Sinner Lady seriously not in the top 100? I had always just assumed that it was.

Wtf, how is it all the way down at 149.


Tell me about it. Here's an analogy for the Overall Chart that's actually not far off. If it were a Classical Music list, it would be like having Beethoven's 9th (or similar such towering masterpiece of art) ranked #149. Then a bunch of the entries above it would be collections of Minuets from the 1700s, Final Fantasy video game scores, and some solid John Williams (or the like) film scores. About 80% or more of them would be on this level of relative quality to Beethoven's 9th. Some others would be amazing, but "second tier" (but still masterful) classics such as some of Mozart's/Beethoven's Piano Concertos, Bach's Brandenburgs, Pictures at an Exhibition and so forth. A small handful of selections would be most worthy, well known masterpieces such as Beethoven's 5th or 3rd Symphony, or Mozart's 41st. There might be a couple startling, more modern masterpieces such as Rite of Spring or Branca's The Ascension, again, among these slews of Final Fantasy video games scores, collections of Minuets from the 1700s, and John Williams (or the like) film scores. It would be a flabbergasting list to anyone who had really delved into the masterpieces of Classical music, hence my reaction to it whenever it's the topic of conversation.
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