What top BEA picks do u just not like but everyone else does - Music

Yann

Gender: Male
Location: France

Hayden wrote:

Hard to compare, but I'm going to say not in the slightest mate. A song like Let It Be is (for the lack of a better term) rather mathematic. It's a formula that anyone reduplicate. Once you get past the writing process, it's really not all too difficult. It doesn't take much skill, just some lucky ideas. There's an art to pop writing of course, but the process is completely different than jazz (almost opposites). Anybody could play Let It Be, but it'd take an insane person to work on a cover of A Love Supreme. Some of the chord progressions on that album are as tricky as it gets. Pop songs, when stripped to bare minimum, are actually rather boring. At the end of the day, if I had to say which is harder to make, I'd go with A Love Supreme without question.

"Lucky ideas", yes, and that's what we call inspiration. Not given to everyone. Inspiration is complex and I think it requires a lot of selection, decision-making ahead (and even during) the magic. Whereas in instrumental jazz, I have the impression that it's about unleashing a flow of notes (within, or creating, this particular style, art-form that is jazz). So yes, you end up with great complexity and that's why you say it's difficult to cover. You also say it's more difficult to make but I disagree here: as I said in a previous post, I'm almost convinced that an (intrumental) jazz record by Mc Cartney would be better than a (vocal, because it's a usual attribute of a pop record) pop record by Coltrane.
To me a great pop melody is a difficult selection of notes and chords that are simply so good to hear. There is extasy in it ! Unless you listen to it too much in a too short period of time, a great pop song is never boring.

Last edited by Yann on 07/19/2017 12:10; edited 1 time in total

bobbyb5

Gender: Male
Location: New York

Yann wrote:

Hayden wrote:

Hard to compare, but I'm going to say not in the slightest mate. A song like Let It Be is (for the lack of a better term) rather mathematic. It's a formula that anyone reduplicate. Once you get past the writing process, it's really not all too difficult. It doesn't take much skill, just some lucky ideas. There's an art to pop writing of course, but the process is completely different than jazz (almost opposites). Anybody could play Let It Be, but it'd take an insane person to work on a cover of A Love Supreme. Some of the chord progressions on that album are as tricky as it gets. Pop songs, when stripped to bare minimum, are actually rather boring. At the end of the day, if I had to say which is harder to make, I'd go with A Love Supreme without question.

"Lucky ideas", yes, and that's what we call inspiration. Not given to everyone. Inspiration is complex and I think it requires a lot of selection, decision-making ahead (and even during) the magic. Whereas in instrumental jazz, I have the impression that it's about unleashing a flow of notes (within, or creating, this particular style, art-form that is jazz). So yes, you end up with great complexity and that's why you say it's difficult to cover. You also say it's more difficult to make but I disagree here: as I said i a previous post, I'm almost convinced that an (intrumental) jazz record by Mc Cartney would be better than a (vocal, because it's a usual attribute of a pop record) pop record by Coltrane.
To me a great pop melody is a difficult selection of notes and chords that are simply so good to hear. There is extasy in it ! Unless you listen to it too much in a too short period of time, a great pop song is never boring.

I agree. if it's so easy to write a pop melody, then why are so few people able to write great ones? yes, anybody could write a crappy one. all you have to do is look at today's popular and rock music to see that. But if inspiration is just another word for talent then it takes inspiration. Not necessarily genius, but talent. Everyone cant do it.

Luigii

Gender: Male
Age: 28

You got that right Yann.

Repo
BeA Sunflower

Location: Forest Park

Yann wrote:

Hayden wrote:

Hard to compare, but I'm going to say not in the slightest mate. A song like Let It Be is (for the lack of a better term) rather mathematic. It's a formula that anyone reduplicate. Once you get past the writing process, it's really not all too difficult. It doesn't take much skill, just some lucky ideas. There's an art to pop writing of course, but the process is completely different than jazz (almost opposites). Anybody could play Let It Be, but it'd take an insane person to work on a cover of A Love Supreme. Some of the chord progressions on that album are as tricky as it gets. Pop songs, when stripped to bare minimum, are actually rather boring. At the end of the day, if I had to say which is harder to make, I'd go with A Love Supreme without question.

"Lucky ideas", yes, and that's what we call inspiration. Not given to everyone. Inspiration is complex and I think it requires a lot of selection, decision-making ahead (and even during) the magic. Whereas in instrumental jazz, I have the impression that it's about unleashing a flow of notes (within, or creating, this particular style, art-form that is jazz). So yes, you end up with great complexity and that's why you say it's difficult to cover. You also say it's more difficult to make but I disagree here: as I said in a previous post, I'm almost convinced that an (intrumental) jazz record by Mc Cartney would be better than a (vocal, because it's a usual attribute of a pop record) pop record by Coltrane.
To me a great pop melody is a difficult selection of notes and chords that are simply so good to hear. There is extasy in it ! Unless you listen to it too much in a too short period of time, a great pop song is never boring.

lol. so true. I've also heard the same argument applied to some modern paintings. Oh, my kid could do that. Or I could paint that. lol. It's the ideas. And the ideas are genius. That why it's so freaking hard to find an entire album of pop that's amazing whereas with rock there are just so many solid albums from front to back. It exemplifies that pop is actually harder to pull off.

A thread showcasing pop albums where every song is killer would be awesome. Or I'd love to see a chart of the best purely pop albums of all time.

Hayden

Location: CDMX

I don't have a single thing against pop, I like pop, so I just want to get that straight.

One of the oddest things about your argument is that you're treating A Love Supreme as a run of the mill jazz album, which, like, it isn't. A Love Supreme definitely isn't a mere short burst of 'unleashed notes', they have a purpose. There's a certain manner in which they're preformed of course, but there's substance beneath it all. Emotions, purpose, passion.

If McCartney did a jazz record, it'd probably be something along the lines of Grant Green... maybe. Unless he went in a Chet Baker route or something. It'd probably be decent of course, but I don't think it'd have the mastery of Coltrane. If Coltrane made a pop album, it'd still probably be jazz. I'm having a hard time imagining that.

Quote:

I agree. if it's so easy to write a pop melody, then why are so few people able to write great ones?

Pop melodies are a dime a dozen... like, you just whip one up on a piano. Good harmonies and sharp lyrics in pop are what makes music in the genre stick out. Writing a great pop melody is far from writing a great pop song.

Quote:

I've also heard the same argument applied to some modern paintings. Oh, my kid could do that. Or I could paint that. lol. It's the ideas. And the ideas are genius.

And I'm going to turn this right back at you by saying A Love Supreme isn't just a album any jazz musician could whip up by 'unreleashing notes' Laughing

AAL2014

Hayden wrote:

I don't have a single thing against pop, I like pop, so I just want to get that straight.

One of the oddest things about your argument is that you're treating A Love Supreme as a run of the mill jazz album, which, like, it isn't. A Love Supreme definitely isn't a mere short burst of 'unleashed notes', they have a purpose. There's a certain manner in which they're preformed of course, but there's substance beneath it all. Emotions, purpose, passion.

If McCartney did a jazz record, it'd probably be something along the lines of Grant Green... maybe. Unless he went in a Chet Baker route or something. It'd probably be decent of course, but I don't think it'd have the mastery of Coltrane. If Coltrane made a pop album, it'd still probably be jazz. I'm having a hard time imagining that.

Quote:

I agree. if it's so easy to write a pop melody, then why are so few people able to write great ones?

Pop melodies are a dime a dozen... like, you just whip one up on a piano. Good harmonies and sharp lyrics in pop are what makes music in the genre stick out. Writing a great pop melody is far from writing a great pop song.

Quote:

I've also heard the same argument applied to some modern paintings. Oh, my kid could do that. Or I could paint that. lol. It's the ideas. And the ideas are genius.

And I'm going to turn this right back at you by saying A Love Supreme isn't just a album any jazz musician could whip up by 'unreleashing notes' Laughing

Agreed 100%. A Love Supreme is far from a run of the mill jazz album. Purpose with every passing note from every instrument on that record.

And yes Pop melodies are a dime a dozen. They are supposed to be there. It's the quality of said melody that makes it a great, catchy hook or just a song with 6 writers and 7 producers (whoops, slight blanket statement, crucify me). Either way, there are formulas within every style and genre of music. That doesn't mean every musician is going to write and produce great music by following said formulas. Some may get lucky and have a summer hit or two. However, it's the ones who bend the rules and push those boundaries and show their souls in their music like Coltrane did with A Love Supreme (and other albums of course) that matter. Coltrane wasn't a pop artist, and McCartney isn't a jazz artist and the world is better because of it. They each helped redefine the rules of their respective genres.
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Repo
BeA Sunflower

Location: Forest Park

Hayden wrote:

Quote:

I've also heard the same argument applied to some modern paintings. Oh, my kid could do that. Or I could paint that. lol. It's the ideas. And the ideas are genius.

And I'm going to turn this right back at you by saying A Love Supreme isn't just a album any jazz musician could whip up by 'unreleashing notes' Laughing

Yeah. my little comment had nothing at all with A Love Supreme. My comment is along the lines of "Pop is awesome too" rather than "jazz is lame or easy". I love Jazz & I could never figure out how to play the clarinet. lol.

I know u don't feel that way about pop at all Hayden. I think I was just appreciating Yann's comment & your comment happened to already b there.

Peace, brother!

ok, now my kids r going to go emoji crazy... It's art!!! have it guys...

Flogging a dead horse

Last edited by Repo on 07/19/2017 18:54; edited 1 time in total

Daydreamer

Tilly wrote:

A thread showcasing pop albums where every song is killer would be awesome. Or I'd love to see a chart of the best purely pop albums of all time.

I'm all in for that one
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Luigii

Gender: Male
Age: 28

I would be curious of an all pop list where all the songs are good. If I was making that list, I would add both Older and Patience from George Michael on that list since in my opinion they were incredible records.

buzzdainer
Next to the Last True Romantic

Gender: Male
Age: 53
Location: Bozeman, MT

I've got to go with Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. Objectively, it's a great and influential album. Subjectively, I've heard it enough for one lifetime and wouldn't feel much sense of loss if I never heard it again. You can blame WBLM, Maine's Rock and Roll Blimp, for most of that.