Top 10+ Music, Movies, and Visual Art of the Week (2019) - Music Diaries

TheHutts

Gender: Male

baystateoftheart wrote:

Well for some context, my criteria do not directly include emotional depth, so I rate this album so highly based primarily on its pop songcraft, or in other words simply how good it sounds to my ears. The songwriting, production, and hooks are all close to a perfect execution of pop in my estimation. The album is incredibly catchy, has infectious energy, is at turns danceable and romantic, and has great replay value.

There are some tracks that emotionally are lightweight ("Boy Problems", "LA Hallucinations"), but I would say most of the rest is very emotional. These emotional themes that are well-developed include:

utter ecstasy/exhiliration
deep love/romance
yearning/fantasy
unrequited love
beginnings of love
betrayal
intimacy/sexuality

I'm totally with you on this - an album like this is never going to score very highly on a criteria that values originality and creativity, but I think she's a very good songwriter and lyricist, and I think the Scaruffi/Afterhours criteria doesn't give enough credit to songwriting as a skill.

I personally rate it higher than most of the 7 albums in AfterHours' top ten that I'm familiar with. I'd put it behind A Love Supreme, and maybe the Mingus, but I think it's blinkered to conflate originality with quality.
_________________
https://albumreviews.blog

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

TheHutts wrote:

baystateoftheart wrote:

Well for some context, my criteria do not directly include emotional depth, so I rate this album so highly based primarily on its pop songcraft, or in other words simply how good it sounds to my ears. The songwriting, production, and hooks are all close to a perfect execution of pop in my estimation. The album is incredibly catchy, has infectious energy, is at turns danceable and romantic, and has great replay value.

There are some tracks that emotionally are lightweight ("Boy Problems", "LA Hallucinations"), but I would say most of the rest is very emotional. These emotional themes that are well-developed include:

utter ecstasy/exhiliration
deep love/romance
yearning/fantasy
unrequited love
beginnings of love
betrayal
intimacy/sexuality

I'm totally with you on this - an album like this is never going to score very highly on a criteria that values originality and creativity, but I think she's a very good songwriter and lyricist, and I think the Scaruffi/Afterhours criteria doesn't give enough credit to songwriting as a skill.

I personally rate it higher than most of the 7 albums in AfterHours' top ten that I'm familiar with. I'd put it behind A Love Supreme, and maybe the Mingus, but I think it's blinkered to conflate originality with quality.

Sorry but while youre welcome to your opinion, she is a mediocre songwriter compared to the innumerable, much better examples, across my lists. The idea that Ive ignored/overlooked/don't give enough credit to this facet is incorrect, as many of the greatest examples are all featured. Further, creativity is indisputably a major factor in "what makes great art?", as art is first and foremost a creative endeavor. You are welcome to claim that I overvalue looking for the Art in art, but I feel this is illogical and would be dishonest to both myself, the history of Art, and others if I didn't. The idea that Jepsen's work is on the order of those in my top 10 or even in my top 5000 is a disservice to far superior artists/composers/songwriters/technicians/vocalists, to which she pales in comparison in every respect (pop and otherwise).
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

Fwiw -- after revisiting it a little bit more -- my "official" rating for Jepsen's EMOTION is 4/10.

Though anyone can call it a masterpiece (or rate it highly) if they really wish to, my personal opinion is that you guys, including a handful of RYM users, have gone coo coo for cocoa puffs. Especially anyone claiming she is a musical genius (of what? Compared to which musical genius(es)?) -- especially on the order of Coltrane or Mingus (!!!!!), or better, other "top 10s" such as Mozart or Beethoven or Schubert or Mahler or Wagner (!!!!!!!!!!) ... etc ... that her vocal/expressive and compositional abilities are extraordinary/amazing/substantial (compared to who?) (!!!!!) ... Again, you're welcome to your opinion, but (imo) these people have completely lost their minds (sorry).

She is attractive and charismatic though. And she seems like she is no less talented than most media-hype-pop-stars. Good marketing too.

Done with this now Laughing

Moving on to music worth more time and attention. Sorry Carly Sad

_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

AfterHours wrote:

you guys, including a handful of RYM users, have gone coo coo for cocoa puffs.

AfterHours wrote:

Again, you're welcome to your opinion, but (imo) these people have completely lost their minds (sorry).

...Lol so liking this album a lot more than you makes us mentally unstable? I was engaging in good faith with you regarding her work, so it's disappointing to see bad faith comments like this in response. I expected better from you.
_________________
Add me on RYM

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

I think in another thread there's this conversation about not liking what is "objectively" better. There's a difference between liking something and something being great.

I think the major difference is that AfterHours is more interested in what's "great" (presumably objective) and baystateoftheart is more interested in what's "good" (presumably more subjective). It's a subtle difference, but apparently what's causing the riff?

I mean really, the concepts of good are debatable and have been for centuries, so to lay claim on "knowing" is a false pretense. Amazing philosophers like Kant didn't even finally "decide" what's aesthetically good or not.

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

baystateoftheart wrote:

...Lol so liking this album a lot more than you makes us mentally unstable? I was engaging in good faith with you regarding her work, so it's disappointing to see bad faith comments like this in response. I expected better from you.

It's nothing... Though I really do think the album is mediocre at best, I was not being particularly serious about the "coo coo for cocoa puffs" and "lost their minds" remarks, except as a humorous way to express my disagreement with your opinions. So I guess the only thing I would say is that, for the life of me, I can't see where you guys are coming from. None of the claims made about it hold up to any scrutiny that I can see, but to each his own as they say -- it's not a big deal.

I thought it was pretty clear that the post was playfully disagreeable, but I can also see how it could be taken differently, so for that I apologize.
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

sethmadsen wrote:

I think in another thread there's this conversation about not liking what is "objectively" better. There's a difference between liking something and something being great.

I think the major difference is that AfterHours is more interested in what's "great" (presumably objective) and baystateoftheart is more interested in what's "good" (presumably more subjective). It's a subtle difference, but apparently what's causing the riff?

I mean really, the concepts of good are debatable and have been for centuries, so to lay claim on "knowing" is a false pretense. Amazing philosophers like Kant didn't even finally "decide" what's aesthetically good or not.

Nope, subjective ... subjective ... subjective. I don't care about objectivity. But I do feel I apply good observation, logic and scrutiny in my assessments (still all subjective, based on my own experience and comparisons) and feel I do a well-considered job of considering the history of art (my experience/knowledge of it) into doing so. If Carly Rae Jepsen's EMOTION is a masterpiece, then at least a hundred or more albums per year are 9-9.5/10-level-masterpieces. If EMOTION is a 9 or 9.5/10 then Beethoven's 9th is a 1000/10 ... or, more comparably (genre-wise), Prince's Purple Rain is a 250/10 or something... Simply put, I rate/rank in proportion to how amazing/profound an effect the album/music work/work of art has upon me (not upon God). The idea that EMOTION accomplishes this (for anybody) on the same level as one of Beethoven's greatest masterpieces does for me (or for someone else that's assimilated them), is practically impossible to believe, and (in my opinion) is an illogical assertion of its impact (because such depth of conviction, emotional/conceptual expression and creativity is simply not there). But again (that's me, subjective), if someone wants to claim this, it's fine by me -- just pretty much impossible to believe, that's all.
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

For me, these comparisons between EMOTION and masterpieces are analogous to saying that something like: Boys and Girls https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/boys_and_girls ... is as amazing an experience for you as Hitchcock's Vertigo or Welles' Citizen Kane or Bergman's Persona. It's okay to have this opinion and to say such a thing, but it would be hard not to assume that this person isn't too interested or discerning in the art of cinema and its creative/emotional/conceptual conveyance applied in expressively extraordinary/profound/amazing ways. And if someone said Robert Iscove invested and expressed as much emotional/conceptual conviction in Boys and Girls as Welles/Bergman/Hitchcock invested and expressed in their films, this would be a confusing and ridiculous assertion to (I would think) any person that had a good grasp on cinema.
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

AfterHours wrote:

For me, these comparisons between EMOTION and masterpieces are analogous to saying that something like: Boys and Girls https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/boys_and_girls ... is as amazing an experience for you as Hitchcock's Vertigo or Welles' Citizen Kane or Bergman's Persona. It's okay to have this opinion and to say such a thing, but it would be hard not to assume that this person isn't too interested or discerning in the art of cinema and its creative/emotional/conceptual conveyance applied in expressively extraordinary/profound/amazing ways. And if someone said Robert Iscove invested and expressed as much emotional/conceptual conviction in Boys and Girls as Welles/Bergman/Hitchcock invested and expressed in their films, this would be a confusing and ridiculous assertion to (I would think) any person that had a good grasp on cinema.

Granted, I haven't watched Boys And Girls, but it's at a lowly 29/100 on Metacritic, while EMOTION is at 77/100. Not exactly apples and apples here in terms of acclaim/renown.

I am not comparing EMOTION favorably to any of the masterpieces of Beethoven etc. you have mentioned, in part because I haven't listened to the classical canon enough to make a comparison. All I'm saying is that to me it's a masterpiece, by a very different set of criteria than the one by which you appoint masterpieces. If I were abandoning my own criteria and making subjective assessments within the framework of your criteria, I would not judge EMOTION to be a masterpiece, and I don't think it would make any sense for you to think it is. However, if I were rating it based on your criteria, I would not go so low as a 4 either. That being said, you've clearly put in the time with this album and given it a chance, so let's just agree to disagree.
_________________
Add me on RYM

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

Makes sense.

I suppose I know a good handful of people who find classical music incredibly boring, so I suppose it all is subjective.

Anyway, I like what you both have to contribute. Keep it up.