Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme - Music

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

Michael1981 wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

This is true - I think the Beatnik's (S&G) weren't as culturally prolific as the Summer of Love hippies (even if the Beatles were brought into that, they themselves didn't classify themselves as such). But the fact that The Beatles were tapping into that Timothy Leary stuff and the others as you described, does make it culturally "more significant". Totally agree there.

But I still think the Beatnik stuff is culturally significant.

Good point. I hadn't thought of PSR&T as being a beatnick album, but it fits the bill perfectly from what I've just read about this. Though I'm not convinced it conveys ideas/feelings feelings of the beat generation/ beatnik's all that creatively or imaginatively. Seems like Dylan captured that freewheeling, anti-authoritarian, literate, "on the road" type of spirit in a much better way. Admittedly though I don't know much about this and have only heard PSR&T a few times.

Oh for sure - if you are going to do a Dylan vs Simon, Dylan is going to win every time.

For me personally the music on PSR&T does more for me than a lot of what Dylan did, but his lyricism and cultural significance is obviously 10x more than Simon ever did. Having said that, I think Simon's lyricism is pretty high on the chain.

But to be fair, it's not like the most culturally significant Beatnik album ever and only loosely has ties to Beatnik. And probably Astral Weeks has just as strong of ties to it and is often revered more. This is all conjecture... these albums just have that poetic feel that is likely Beatnik influenced. I suppose all I'm saying is does PSR&T have it's place, absolutely... but no... when you look up beatnik music, this likely won't be the poster child (I just did and of course all the big artists like Beatles (which claims to have partially named their band with the A because of their admiration of the works from the Beat generation). I suppose you don't have to go much further to just look at the cover of PSR&T to see the influence: "while Paul rises just behind, the modern poet-troubadour clad in cambric and shadow" - you know the pretentiousness argument. Anyway, I much like the poetry on this album. While Beatnik did go into the mid 60s, this is likely the near end of it, and most see jazz as the Beatnik music of choice. But even though I have no evidence than the music itself to support it PSR&T either was at the tail end of Beatnik culture or at least was heavily influenced by it (especially since they were in the scene a the time - Columbia university, etc.).

Were S&G a big player in the culture of the 60s? Absolutely. Were they the biggest players, no. Maybe top 10, but likely more like top 15.

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

Fischman wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

Fischman wrote:

Even Sound of Silence didn't resonate with me until Disturbed did it. They brought an appropriate level of intensity to that otherwise sad sack song.

Don't hold anything back!

I find the Disturbed version pretentious (there's that stupid word again!), even if a decent interpretation of the song and the original absolutely beautiful (but could've been recorded/mixed better).

See, I don't find the Disturbed version pretentious at all. (but then I'm a big prog fan, so some might say I have an unusually high tolerance for pretentiousness Very Happy

). But really, this is Disturbed--pretty much a straight up mainstream post-grunge/alt-metal band. They don't exactly maintain their fan base by throwing out grandiose intellectual gestures.

To me, it's S&G who sound pretentious with their incessant mix of "pretty" harmonies and understated deliver, as if that's some kind of magic formula that only they can deliver, but they think works for everything. To me, the lyrical content of Sound of Silence is much better served by demonstrating some angst and discontent rather than unwavering, quiet resignation. There is something maddening about this form of silence, and that needs to be expressed. The way the Disturbed version builds and swells sonically, just as the expression of the reaction to silence itself builds as the song progresses, is what truly brings life to the lyric. It is genuinely powerful, and the most powerful expression of the lyric possible. It moves my in a way the original never could.

It's rare that I think a cover exceeds, let alone blows away, the original. Other than Hendrix' Watchtower, there's not much I can think of offhand. And the gap here is far beyond the gap in Watchtower, which is saying something because I straight up hate Dylan.[/quote]

Hmmm... that's interesting. I find the emotion in Disturbed's version force and the S&G more dynamic and honest, and therefore more emotionally powerful. Different strokes for different folks.

Pretentious, to me, means that someone is going out of their normal realm of cultural significance, etc. For example, U2 doing Rattle and Hum was seen as such. The musicians they were rubbing shoulders didn't and even complimented their musicianship/artistic abilities, but critics murdered them for it. Same happened for Paul Simon for Graceland (amongst other political issues, and it seems some African artists supported him for it and some didn't).

My understanding is Simon & Garfunkel really were a part of the culture that would write something powerful like sound of silence (lyrically) and to me Disturbed isn't... and therefore a bit pretentious. That vocal performance seems to me to be trying to hard. But maybe Disturbed always sounds that way... I don't know their music that well. To me it sounds like a man rock version (ala Creed/Nickelback). I'd take S&G over it any day. Now that sounds like their cover has no value, and that's not true either. It's not a bad rendition, I'm just saying it has it's flaws too.

theblueboy

sethmadsen wrote:

Michael1981 wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

This is true - I think the Beatnik's (S&G) weren't as culturally prolific as the Summer of Love hippies (even if the Beatles were brought into that, they themselves didn't classify themselves as such). But the fact that The Beatles were tapping into that Timothy Leary stuff and the others as you described, does make it culturally "more significant". Totally agree there.

But I still think the Beatnik stuff is culturally significant.

Good point. I hadn't thought of PSR&T as being a beatnick album, but it fits the bill perfectly from what I've just read about this. Though I'm not convinced it conveys ideas/feelings feelings of the beat generation/ beatnik's all that creatively or imaginatively. Seems like Dylan captured that freewheeling, anti-authoritarian, literate, "on the road" type of spirit in a much better way. Admittedly though I don't know much about this and have only heard PSR&T a few times.

Oh for sure - if you are going to do a Dylan vs Simon, Dylan is going to win every time.

For me personally the music on PSR&T does more for me than a lot of what Dylan did, but his lyricism and cultural significance is obviously 10x more than Simon ever did. Having said that, I think Simon's lyricism is pretty high on the chain.

But to be fair, it's not like the most culturally significant Beatnik album ever and only loosely has ties to Beatnik. And probably Astral Weeks has just as strong of ties to it and is often revered more. This is all conjecture... these albums just have that poetic feel that is likely Beatnik influenced. I suppose all I'm saying is does PSR&T have it's place, absolutely... but no... when you look up beatnik music, this likely won't be the poster child (I just did and of course all the big artists like Beatles (which claims to have partially named their band with the A because of their admiration of the works from the Beat generation). I suppose you don't have to go much further to just look at the cover of PSR&T to see the influence: "while Paul rises just behind, the modern poet-troubadour clad in cambric and shadow" - you know the pretentiousness argument. Anyway, I much like the poetry on this album. While Beatnik did go into the mid 60s, this is likely the near end of it, and most see jazz as the Beatnik music of choice. But even though I have no evidence than the music itself to support it PSR&T either was at the tail end of Beatnik culture or at least was heavily influenced by it (especially since they were in the scene a the time - Columbia university, etc.).

Were S&G a big player in the culture of the 60s? Absolutely. Were they the biggest players, no. Maybe top 10, but likely more like top 15.

Yeah, I agree with all of that. I guess it's sometimes hard to avoid Dylan comparisons when it comes to Simon. I think by Bookends though he really has a strong direction of his own across a full album. Personally, I think that album is a bit flawed as well, but Simon no longer seems in anyone's shadow.

And yeah I think you got the beatnick thing right with S and G. Just look at the turtlenecks on the front of the Bookends album. Totally beatnick!

TheHutts

Gender: Male

Paul Simon's lyrics on Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme remind me of an over-eager, naive, first year English Major. They're not without merit, but they're pretentious and awkward. There's a definitely dorky, outsider feel on them too, like the dramatic "Four Letters" climax to 'Poem on an Underground Wall'.

I like the album, but the three best remembered songs ('Scarborough Fair', 'Homeward Bound', '59th Street') overshadow the rest. Their last Simon and Garfunkel two albums have a higher density of great songs, and Simon has his own established style.

hereforashortime

Gender: Male

TheHutts wrote:

I like the album, but the three best remembered songs ('Scarborough Fair', 'Homeward Bound', '59th Street') overshadow the rest. Their last Simon and Garfunkel two albums have a higher density of great songs, and Simon has his own established style.

Agreed.
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