Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song" - Music

brent13

Gender: Male
Age: 48
Location: Oakland, CA

Here are just a few:

Son of Orange County - Roxy & Elsewhere
Cosmik Debris - Apostrophe!
Uncle Remus - Apostrophe!
Camarillo Brillo - Overnight Sensation
Flakes - Sheik Yerbouti
Bobby Brown Goes Downtown - Sheik Yerbouti
The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing - You Are What You Is
Dumb All Over - You Are What You Is
Heavenly Bank Account - You Are What You Is

oh, and all of Joe's Garage. It is a concept album satirizing the overall direction of music, religion, and government in the late 70s, and includes probably the first satire of Scientology.

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

brent13 wrote:

Here are just a few:

Son of Orange County - Roxy & Elsewhere
Cosmik Debris - Apostrophe!
Uncle Remus - Apostrophe!
Camarillo Brillo - Overnight Sensation
Flakes - Sheik Yerbouti
Bobby Brown Goes Downtown - Sheik Yerbouti
The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing - You Are What You Is
Dumb All Over - You Are What You Is
Heavenly Bank Account - You Are What You Is

oh, and all of Joe's Garage. It is a concept album satirizing the overall direction of music, religion, and government in the late 70s, and includes probably the first satire of Scientology.

Much appreciated. Out of all of that, I only listened to Joe's Garage Pt. 1, so glad you pointed out these!

brent13

Gender: Male
Age: 48
Location: Oakland, CA

Why did you stop at Act I? If you didn't like Act I, then you probably won't like Act II as it's pretty raunchy with Joe joining the Church of Appliantology founded by L. Ron Hoover, where he is encouraged to have sex with robot appliances and is eventually thrown in prison for playing rock music. It's a pretty weird story, but there is outstanding and complex music throughout. Act III is quite sublime after Joe gets out of prison ending with three of my all time favorite Zappa songs: 'Packard Goose', 'Watermelon in Easter Hay' and 'A Little Green Rosetta'.

RichardSauce

brent13 wrote:

Quote:

I haven't evaluated everything Mr. Zappa did, but from what I did listen to, it just seemed more like scatological humor

I'd consider it to be satirical more than scatological. Zappa satirizes hippies, televangelists, Scientology, rock groupies, disc jockeys, rock music writers, President Nixon, and a host of others. Yes, he can be raunchy when joking about bodily fluids and sexual devices, but I think it is far more absurdist than juvenile and compliments the often absurd music. "I can take about an hour on the Tower of Power as long as I gets a little golden shower" is too clever for kids. I'll admit that I have to be in the right mood to listen to Zappa, but when I do I am rarely disappointed.

I would disagree that the lyrics to Bobby Brown are too clever for kids, in fact I would call them downright juvenile, like a lot of his other humor. Look, I know Zappa was an intelligent and iconoclastic man, but too much of his humor post-Mothers was intentionally juvenile, low brow, and otherwise troubling.

As for satire....sure, I think that was often times his intent, but the problem with satire is the constant line you have to walk between between satirizing and just replicating what you intend to satirize, and I don't think he was very good at walking it. Nor do I think he was always coming from a place satire, sometimes he just found that stuff funny.

brent13

Gender: Male
Age: 48
Location: Oakland, CA

I think story arc of popular pretty boy evolving to be a sad pathetic sexual deviant is a lot funnier and understandable after one is old enough to have had a variety of life experiences. One of the constants of Zappa's music and lyrics is there is no line to be crossed. It's just in our heads. Lyrics are just words. "Words are just words" as he famously argued on CNN's Crossfire.

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

brent13 wrote:

Why did you stop at Act I? If you didn't like Act I, then you probably won't like Act II as it's pretty raunchy with Joe joining the Church of Appliantology founded by L. Ron Hoover, where he is encouraged to have sex with robot appliances and is eventually thrown in prison for playing rock music. It's a pretty weird story, but there is outstanding and complex music throughout. Act III is quite sublime after Joe gets out of prison ending with three of my all time favorite Zappa songs: 'Packard Goose', 'Watermelon in Easter Hay' and 'A Little Green Rosetta'.

Honestly the 4 Zappa albums I listened to were during a decade dive.

So I listened to them all the way through and they didn't leave me wanting.

Perhaps I would have appreciated Zappa as a writer or movie producer because that sounds great. I've always treated music as something sacred, so metal bands or Zappa doing stuff like you explained above, doesn't really sound like something I'd like in music, but nearly any other medium, I'd love. Strange... (it's me... haha).

brent13

Gender: Male
Age: 48
Location: Oakland, CA

Quote:

I've always treated music as something sacred

Interesting that one of Frank's most well known quotes about music happens to be in 'Packard Goose' on Joe's Garage:

“Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty.
Beauty is not love.
Love is not music.
Music is THE BEST.”

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

brent13 wrote:

Quote:

I've always treated music as something sacred

Interesting that one of Frank's most well known quotes about music happens to be in 'Packard Goose' on Joe's Garage:

“Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty.
Beauty is not love.
Love is not music.
Music is THE BEST.”

Well said.

I'm first to admit I know very little of Zappa and was first to say I immensely respect the dude, but from the 4 albums I listened to twice at most, I was put off by the silliness or over the top stuff and things. It appears I either need to just read his lyrics (likely skipping over a good chunk?) to find amazing nuggets like that.

And it's odd, I'm also appreciative of some silly music... humor in music... nothing wrong with it, somehow his was offputting. I mean if I can appreciate They Might Be Giants or RHCP, how is it I can't appreciate Zappa? Maybe I'm setting too high a bar... dunno. Just rubbed me the wrong way when I tried to get into it.

I REALLY appreciate you pointing out the finer points. Seriously. Thanks. I'll need to revisit this thread when I evaluate music from 60s, and onward.

RichardSauce

brent13 wrote:

I think story arc of popular pretty boy evolving to be a sad pathetic sexual deviant is a lot funnier and understandable after one is old enough to have had a variety of life experiences. One of the constants of Zappa's music and lyrics is there is no line to be crossed. It's just in our heads. Lyrics are just words. "Words are just words" as he famously argued on CNN's Crossfire.

I think the crux of the song is more along the lines of a football player rapist getting his balls literally crushed by feminist "dyke," which turns him into a "homo." The kindest reading I can give the song is that Zappa is satirizing 1970's fears that women's liberation movements are inherently emasculating...but again, I'm not sure if succeeds in the satire.

As for words just being words....I tend disagree with that too. Words have meaning, in fact that's the entire point of words. Meanings are associational, contextual, but they carry weight and have impact, especially when introduced through mass media.

In any case, it's funny, in many ways I consider Zappa a forerunner of the South Park style of humor/satire, and I mean that as both a compliment and as a reprimand. Their philosophies are remarkably similar, and I feel both often had points behind their scatological and transgressive humor, I just don't always agree with those points, or find the delivery effective.

brent13

Gender: Male
Age: 48
Location: Oakland, CA

I have been trying to defend Zappa's lyrics, but it's really just an attempt to help people initially "get past" the lyrics to the often sublime music.

When I first started listening to Zappa I would skip the raunchy or "silly" tracks in favor of the instrumental and mature ones. It took me a while to realize that many of the tracks I was skipping had just as wonderful melodies, funky grooves, and tight, complex changes that give me the chills. The underlying music and lyrical context helped me begin to tolerate and eventually even appreciate a lot of the lyrics, even the offensive ones.

This is my first discussion on BEA after using the site for many years. It took a thread about Zappa and comments about his lyrics to get me to speak up. I think it's because some artists I love, like Zappa, Ween and Phish don't receive as much respect as I think they deserve. And I get tired of their fans apologising for their lyrics. Most of us don't love these artists despite the lyrics. The lyrics have become so integral to the music that we can't imagine their music without it.