Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN. - Music

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

boyd94 wrote:

Do you pay attention to lyrics? I know it's a thing Scaruffi admits to, and it's probably why he doesn't seem all that enamored by hip-hop.

Kendrick Lamar's greatest strength is emotional and conceptual depth. In my opinion he's unparalleled in his genre. But here it's largely in the lyrics, as per the nature of the genre. If that hamstrings the genre in relation to your criteria, then I'd say that's a flaw in the criteria, not the genre.

DAMN is not nearly as expressive instrumentally as TPAB but if I was to give one criticism of its conceptual through-lines is that they are bordering on overcooked. Themes of religious guilt and sin, both individual and, alarmingly, collective and racial, are expressed in a way rarely seen in the genre and indeed mainstream music.

I'm not saying it's a great album, or even significant in a broad historical sense, but to claim that there are hundreds of superior musical works in any given year, especially in recent years, is something I can't fathom if my understanding of your own criteria is correct.

I do pay attention to lyrics, but if the vocal expression is lacking, then the lyrics become mostly unsubstantial. The vocal expression gives the lyrics substance. The words themselves are not particularly important from a musical perspective -- unless the vocals are expressing the meaning/emotion of the words or phrases as well.

I will revisit DAMN just to be sure. Seeing as someone who understands my criteria/selections is recommending it fairly strongly. I have had many albums suddenly upgrade in rating upon a revisit, so I am far from a stranger to changing my mind.
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Gender: Female
Age: 38

I still haven't actually listened to DAMN, I've heard some songs though, and I do think there is some real artistry going on with Kendrick Lamar's stuff but some semi-arbitrary taste stuff puts me off. Not in a way where I think it's bad or anything, I just don't feel invested and that doesn't have to mean anything more than just that. But I still think this was a great choice for the award and feels like it accomplishes what this award should be accomplishing better than recent past winners, which I think is to reveal people's ignorance and inability to accept advancements in the art form that need to be accepted. Seriously I've been reading responses, people in the classical music community doing the whole rap/crap pun like they are in grade school, very longwinded arguments about why rap isn't music. And I think it's good to get that stuff out because then it can be held to some scrutiny.

Like even here a statement like "But here it's largely in the lyrics, as per the nature of the genre" which isn't even coming from a place of dismissing the genre at all, I think misses out on the musicality of rap. Like here's 3 videos queued up to the same verse, 3 different performances, two different people

https://youtu.be/Ull6ycTtKrc?t=91
https://youtu.be/dA4GXRU1SKA?t=78
https://youtu.be/_d2BCEI9DxA?t=51

now, there are some differences, for sure. especially with the one done by chris pratt there, but also in the live performance which it should be noted is many many years after the original recording. but I included that to still show that there are these consistent relationships between deliberate pitch, rhythm, and use of timbre by way of performative emotions related to the lyrics. someone could totally develop a system of notation for this, there is a music in it and it gets communicated to people.

but I'd also say that statements like "Though it certainly has its share of extraordinary albums, Hip Hop is still very far behind from rivaling the masterpieces of Classical, Jazz, and much of Rock, especially in terms of creativity and emotional/conceptual depth" deserve the serious scrutiny. Because this is a genre that has been going for 40 years now. I believe people can fool themselves into thinking they have the authority to dismiss a 40 year old genre like that in part because they do not recognize the musicality of rapping, though I cannot speak to AfterHours position specifically, I mean purely in the general sort of people who say this sort of stuff. So I think this specific musical element should not be dismissed so much.

Last edited by Tap on 04/21/2018 02:34; edited 1 time in total

Hayden

Location: CDMX

AfterHours wrote:

I will revisit DAMN just to be sure. Seeing as someone who understands my criteria/selections is recommending it fairly strongly. I have had many albums suddenly upgrade in rating upon a revisit, so I am far from a stranger to changing my mind.

All being said, I think DAMN. is a very good album, while still being Kendrick's (well...) worst. It landed in my top 10 of 2017, and I think DNA and FEAR in particular rank among his best tracks, but even among hip-hop last year I found Tyler's Flower Boy leaps and bounds more impressive.

Kendrick Lamar is a super impressive hip-hop artist, even important, and deserves some sort of 'top 10 of all time' sort of recognition, but as I've let the Pulitzer news settle, I think it's still a remarkably strange choice.

#FirstrappertowinaNobel2042justyouwatch

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I still haven't actually listened to DAMN

Just do it, y'know? It's not that long. See what you think.

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Age: 38

I already know I'm not invested, what I think about it wouldn't really have any depth to it. I'm glad it has the status it does and I know people are getting a lot out of it and that that's good, nothing will be gained by me also knowing what the song featuring u2 sounds like.

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

Tap wrote:

but I'd also say that statements like "Though it certainly has its share of extraordinary albums, Hip Hop is still very far behind from rivaling the masterpieces of Classical, Jazz, and much of Rock, especially in terms of creativity and emotional/conceptual depth" deserve the serious scrutiny. Because this is a genre that has been going for 40 years now. I believe people can fool themselves into thinking they have the authority to dismiss a 40 year old genre like that in part because they do not recognize the musicality of rapping, though I cannot speak to AfterHours position specifically, I mean purely in the general sort of people who say this sort of stuff. So I think this specific musical element should not be dismissed so much.

That's a good point to look out for but it doesn't really apply with me because I'm not just blindly dismissing the genre. I've heard most of the best hip hop albums of all time (presumably) or at least enough to make a fairly accurate evaluation, or if you prefer, "educated guess". And I champion them appropriately on my "Greatest Albums" list, and would love there to be even more. I am simply comparing Hip Hop to genres (which Ive also listened to and eval'd extensively) that have a lot more masterpieces in them. It wasn't intended to be an authoritive view in some sort of "objective" sense, but perhaps a "qualified" (for lack of a better term) subjective view through the prism of having done enough work on the matter to confidently ascertain such, and offer my retort/argument. That said, I am all for discovering a Hip Hop album that is as astonishing as those in the 9/10 section of my lists -- or the many of them, if they exist. The best Hip Hop albums, according to me, can be found on my lists (Nation of Millions would at the very top). Its not that I feel it can't be done, or that the genre is incapable of producing masterpieces on the order of said 9/10s -- I just dont think it has.
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boyd94

Tap wrote:

Like even here a statement like "But here it's largely in the lyrics, as per the nature of the genre" which isn't even coming from a place of dismissing the genre at all, I think misses out on the musicality of rap.

For sure, there are some examples of impressive musicality in the genre. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the music serves the words in hip-hop, indeed for all of Raekwon's lyrical talent and expression he is not the same without RZA, whose style is so distinctive and influential as to be a genre unto itself.

I'm finding it difficult to express what I mean here. Might come back to it later.

AfterHours wrote:

I will revisit DAMN just to be sure. Seeing as someone who understands my criteria/selections is recommending it fairly strongly. I have had many albums suddenly upgrade in rating upon a revisit, so I am far from a stranger to changing my mind.

If you're giving TPAB 7/10 I would honestly put DAMN at 6/10.

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Boyd I'm not sure if you got what I was saying. I think the vocals themselves are a significant musical component which is full of deliberate choices that people who listen are able to pick up on and replicate, and that this is not recognized enough. Raekwon isn't just the lyrical talent, he is performing music. Like it seems like this is an obvious thing but with all the focus on words and generalized expression, I'm not sure if people get that it's music too.

boyd94

Tap wrote:

Boyd I'm not sure if you got what I was saying. I think the vocals themselves are a significant musical component which is full of deliberate choices that people who listen are able to pick up on and replicate, and that this is not recognized enough. Raekwon isn't just the lyrical talent, he is performing music. Like it seems like this is an obvious thing but with all the focus on words and generalized expression, I'm not sure if people get that it's music too.

By 'expression' I did mean to include vocal delivery (and the inextricable relationship of that delivery to the music that emerges when a rapper and producer truly understand each other). Again I'll think some more on this and come back to it.

Tha1ChiefRocka
Yeah, well hey, I'm really sorry.

Location: Kansas

I stayed out of this for as long as I could, but here is all that I have to say.

Rap/ Hip hop is the most important Post-Modern art form. It is one of the only genres of music to have it's genesis in the post modern era as well as it's peak. Of course, the academic elite the, "powers that be", probably don't agree with this. There are rap albums that have all the tenets of what a great piece of post modernist art should have: it's ironic, it's meta, it's skeptical of the world around it. To still say that it lacks conceptual depth comparatively to other genres of music, is either showing willful ignorance or bias, or maybe a combination of the two. I would be hard pressed to name any kind of artistic movement that has remained in the cultural zeitgeist for as long as rap music has. It's evolution from a style of art on the streets to what is now the most profitable and identifiable form of music in the United States, perhaps the world, is unbelievable.

travelful
BEA's Official Florida Man

Age: 27
Location: Davenport, Florida

Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:

I stayed out of this for as long as I could, but here is all that I have to say.

Rap/ Hip hop is the most important Post-Modern art form. It is one of the only genres of music to have it's genesis in the post modern era as well as it's peak. Of course, the academic elite the, "powers that be", probably don't agree with this. There are rap albums that have all the tenets of what a great piece of post modernist art should have: it's ironic, it's meta, it's skeptical of the world around it. To still say that it lacks conceptual depth comparatively to other genres of music, is either showing willful ignorance or bias, or maybe a combination of the two. I would be hard pressed to name any kind of artistic movement that has remained in the cultural zeitgeist for as long as rap music has. It's evolution from a style of art on the streets to what is now the most profitable and identifiable form of music in the United States, perhaps the world, is unbelievable.

Well said.