I stayed out of this for as long as I could, but here is all that I have to say.
Rap/ Hip hop is the most important Post-Modern art form. It is one of the only genres of music to have it's genesis in the post modern era as well as it's peak. Of course, the academic elite the, "powers that be", probably don't agree with this. There are rap albums that have all the tenets of what a great piece of post modernist art should have: it's ironic, it's meta, it's skeptical of the world around it. To still say that it lacks conceptual depth comparatively to other genres of music, is either showing willful ignorance or bias, or maybe a combination of the two. I would be hard pressed to name any kind of artistic movement that has remained in the cultural zeitgeist for as long as rap music has. It's evolution from a style of art on the streets to what is now the most profitable and identifiable form of music in the United States, perhaps the world, is unbelievable.
No doubt you are welcome to your opinion if you feel Hip Hop has produced staggering masterpieces on the order of emotional/conceptual depth and creativity of Beethoven's/Mahler's/Wagner's/Bach's masterpieces, or Bob Dylan's Blonde On Blonde, or Astral Weeks, or Miles Davis' Bitches Brew, or Coltrane's greatest masterpieces (A Love Supreme, Ascension), or Pop Group's Y, or The Velvet Underground and Nico ... etc ... but I stand by my statement (as this is at least partially directed my way), and am very sure I have been anything but "willfully ignorant or biased". I've simply taken a logical/honest view of it and have no doubts or reservations that this is the case (imo, of course ... and aside from the possibility there is always a chance there is some obscure Hip Hop masterpiece I have yet to hear). _________________ Best Classical Best Films Best Paintings
Isn't it telling, at least a small amount, that the newest album (out of the ones you mentioned) was made in 1979? (I know that you have artists rated highly after 1979, but just for argument's sake )
Hip hop has, for the most part, done a better job in the last 30 years of reflecting the progresses, issues, and changes in society better than any other form of music. As classical, jazz, folk, and rock may have done in the past.
I think both of these works with the theme of suicide both reflect their time period and the artist who made them very well. They would be all time greats for me.
I stayed out of this for as long as I could, but here is all that I have to say.
Rap/ Hip hop is the most important Post-Modern art form. It is one of the only genres of music to have it's genesis in the post modern era as well as it's peak. Of course, the academic elite the, "powers that be", probably don't agree with this. There are rap albums that have all the tenets of what a great piece of post modernist art should have: it's ironic, it's meta, it's skeptical of the world around it. To still say that it lacks conceptual depth comparatively to other genres of music, is either showing willful ignorance or bias, or maybe a combination of the two. I would be hard pressed to name any kind of artistic movement that has remained in the cultural zeitgeist for as long as rap music has. It's evolution from a style of art on the streets to what is now the most profitable and identifiable form of music in the United States, perhaps the world, is unbelievable.
The most important Post-Modern art form? Hardly. Everything else you said? Definitely, but it's not so black and white. For example, conceptual depth isn't really something you can measure, so it's pretty hard to tell if it has more "meaning" and "depth" than other genres. And you're talking about rap/hip hop in general here, but we mustn't forget that like any genre before and after, there are tons of terrible rappers on every good one. Popularity and quality don't correspond, as you know probably better than me. And rock is/was in the zeitgeist longer than rap, even if you exclude the last 10 years or so. The evolution of rap as a genre is fascinating though, just as you said, much like punk in its time. And the genre has very bright future with Kendrick, Tyler and similar guys _________________ Finally updated the overall chart
I stayed out of this for as long as I could, but here is all that I have to say.
Rap/ Hip hop is the most important Post-Modern art form. It is one of the only genres of music to have it's genesis in the post modern era as well as it's peak. Of course, the academic elite the, "powers that be", probably don't agree with this. There are rap albums that have all the tenets of what a great piece of post modernist art should have: it's ironic, it's meta, it's skeptical of the world around it. To still say that it lacks conceptual depth comparatively to other genres of music, is either showing willful ignorance or bias, or maybe a combination of the two. I would be hard pressed to name any kind of artistic movement that has remained in the cultural zeitgeist for as long as rap music has. It's evolution from a style of art on the streets to what is now the most profitable and identifiable form of music in the United States, perhaps the world, is unbelievable.
The most important Post-Modern art form? Hardly. Everything else you said? Definitely, but it's not so black and white. For example, conceptual depth isn't really something you can measure, so it's pretty hard to tell if it has more "meaning" and "depth" than other genres. And you're talking about rap/hip hop in general here, but we mustn't forget that like any genre before and after, there are tons of terrible rappers on every good one. Popularity and quality don't correspond, as you know probably better than me. And rock is/was in the zeitgeist longer than rap, even if you exclude the last 10 years or so. The evolution of rap as a genre is fascinating though, just as you said, much like punk in its time. And the genre has very bright future with Kendrick, Tyler and similar guys
A bit of hyperbole never hurts right? I'd say that Rock and Rap are getting close to being equal in their coverage of importance now. I would say that Rock's height was from about 1955 to 1995, but since about 1990 Rap has been at the forefront. Rock's popularity also overlapped with the peak of jazz which dilutes those early yearssomewhat.
Comments like that is why I would argue it is underrated (at least on websites like this and RYM) and am glad it won this award. Hundreds of better works in any given year? Cmon...that's a ridiculous statement.
TPAB is obviously more worthy of such an award if we're giving it to Kendrick, but still I'm glad DAMN won. If there is anyone out there who deserves to be the first hip-hop artist to win the award, it is Kendrick Lamar. So I am happy they at least got that right, even if they gave it to the wrong album in his discography. Some people still just refuse to accept that hip-hop is a form of higher art that can rival any genre in terms of creativity, I am glad the Pulitzer prize has moved on from this stupidity.
Nope, that's not the case but your sentiment is understandable. Though it certainly has its share of extraordinary albums, Hip Hop is still very far behind from rivaling the masterpieces of Classical, Jazz, and much of Rock, especially in terms of creativity and emotional/conceptual depth.
I do agree that TPAB was much better but Lamar is rather overrated in general (including TPAB, even though this is a very good album).
DAMN is a mediocre work and there are hundreds of albums/Jazz works/Classical works, any given year, that are better. It (honestly) wouldn't even make my top 30,000 works of art of all time, and doesn't deserve mention among the many great albums of Hip Hop. It was a very poor choice for the award and will not seem so substantial once Lamar's career is no longer being viewed through the prism of its current hype-machine-spin-cycle.
I stayed out of this for as long as I could, but here is all that I have to say.
Rap/ Hip hop is the most important Post-Modern art form. It is one of the only genres of music to have it's genesis in the post modern era as well as it's peak. Of course, the academic elite the, "powers that be", probably don't agree with this. There are rap albums that have all the tenets of what a great piece of post modernist art should have: it's ironic, it's meta, it's skeptical of the world around it. To still say that it lacks conceptual depth comparatively to other genres of music, is either showing willful ignorance or bias, or maybe a combination of the two. I would be hard pressed to name any kind of artistic movement that has remained in the cultural zeitgeist for as long as rap music has. It's evolution from a style of art on the streets to what is now the most profitable and identifiable form of music in the United States, perhaps the world, is unbelievable.
The most important Post-Modern art form? Hardly. Everything else you said? Definitely, but it's not so black and white. For example, conceptual depth isn't really something you can measure, so it's pretty hard to tell if it has more "meaning" and "depth" than other genres. And you're talking about rap/hip hop in general here, but we mustn't forget that like any genre before and after, there are tons of terrible rappers on every good one. Popularity and quality don't correspond, as you know probably better than me. And rock is/was in the zeitgeist longer than rap, even if you exclude the last 10 years or so. The evolution of rap as a genre is fascinating though, just as you said, much like punk in its time. And the genre has very bright future with Kendrick, Tyler and similar guys
A bit of hyperbole never hurts right? I'd say that Rock and Rap are getting close to being equal in their coverage of importance now. I would say that Rock's height was from about 1955 to 1995, but since about 1990 Rap has been at the forefront. Rock's popularity also overlapped with the peak of jazz which dilutes those early yearssomewhat.
As things stand, in years to come I'm sure rap will still be the biggest genre out there, I'm hoping for many new classics. Who knows, maybe in 20 years our time will be called "the golden era" of hip hop. And it is getting pretty close to rock and jazz in terms of longitude, and with that also in terms of importance. 1955-1995 is spot on I think, rock was evolving through that whole period until it started recycling in the post-grunge era (at least in the mainstream), and that's why it isn't as popular today. Also jazz golden era was from the 30s all the way to 1970 and something, maybe even the early 80s with Keith Jarret, Jaco Pastorius and others? Anyways, even more "rock" guys like me can't complain much, there's good new and old rock bands today and as long as music is interesting and evolving there'll be new albums (hip hop, rock and much more) that are worth listening to... Just my thoughts Chief, it's an interesting matter _________________ Finally updated the overall chart
This is somewhat reminiscent of the brouhaha surrounding Dylan having won a Nobel Prize for Literature, but with one key difference.
Like Lamar, many old heads and traditionalists scoffed at Dylan earning such an honor.
Like Lamar, Dylan's music is noting to get excited about. Dylan's fame rests on his words more so than the music to which it is set.
And therein lies the difference. Personally, I find Dylan unlistenable, but I understand the attention paid to his poetry. So him winning a Nobel specifically for Literature does seem within the realm of the reasonable.
However, the criteria for a Pulitzer in music is broader than the criteria for a Nobel in Literature. The Nobel focuses only on the language while the Pulitzer is for "distinguished musical composition," which implies the music is just as important as the words.
So when we start thinking about "distinguished musical composition," then Lamar's selection becomes even more suspect. He's no Dylan to begin with, but the music is hardly "distinguished composition." I'm with @AfterHours in thinking there's many (maybe not hundreds, but plenty) of jazz/classical (and I would add progressive rock) releases annually that far exceed Lamar in any given year in the arena of musical composition. Lamar may be taking hip-hop further than the very basic standards of the past, but for it to approach the technical accomplishments of the greats currently operating in these other genres, he's got a loooooong way to go.
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