Album of the day (#2894): Nevermind by Nirvana - Music

carpents

Fischman wrote:

Sure there was more than anger. There was also angst, disillusionment, disgust, misery, sarcasm, frustration, burnout....

All of those things are very different though, and I honestly get most of the latter but not really anger from Nirvana. Definitely anger towards record labels/the music industry, but like you said it falls more in the disgust/frustration spectrum.

I'm not going to pile on, because you're not 100% wrong. The only way out for Kurt was inside himself (which is I think the point you originally made) but the route to get there is different for everyone. The pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps doesn't work for everyone. I'm not an expert at all, but didn't Kurt also have a medical GI condition which was pretty unpleasant? Physical pain over long periods of time (with no successful treatment) is overwhelming.

Like craola said though, there are some of us who share the emotions that Nirvana sang about, and there is a strange comfort in knowing that other people feel the same. I highly doubt that Nirvana's music is driving people to commit suicide, even those who lionize Kurt. (Is that ultimately your problem with Kurt?)
_________________
Some New Ordeal (Spotify/iTunes/Deezer)

Skinny
birdman_handrub.gif

Once common-or-garden, the now lesser-spotted prog elitist occasionally strays from its natural habitat, though its interactions with other ceatures - usually more mild-mannered and amicable than itself - can be uncomfortable, due in large part to the prog elitist's hard-wired penchant for inflammatory gestures. An unreasonably proud and inherently antisocial creature, the prog elitist treats any environment it stumbles upon as its own, urinating and defecating to mark its territory, and generally regards all other species with contempt (if, indeed, at all). Unbeknownst to itself, the prog elitist is widely considered one of the world's uglier creatures; despite the efforts of its neighbours to stay well out of its way, its clumsy, obnoxious nature often leads to entirely avoidable confrontations.
_________________
2021 in full effect. Come drop me some recs. Y'all know what I like.

Fischman
RockMonster, JazzMeister, Bluesboy,ClassicalMaster

Gender: Male
Location: Land of Enchantment

Skinny wrote:

Once common-or-garden, the now lesser-spotted prog elitist occasionally strays from its natural habitat, though its interactions with other ceatures - usually more mild-mannered and amicable than itself - can be uncomfortable, due in large part to the prog elitist's hard-wired penchant for inflammatory gestures. An unreasonably proud and inherently antisocial creature, the prog elitist treats any environment it stumbles upon as its own, urinating and defecating to mark its territory, and generally treating all other species with contempt. Unbeknowst to itself, the prog elitist is widely considered one of the world's uglier creatures; despite the efforts of its neighbours to stay well out of its way, its clumsy, obnoxious nature often leads to entirely avoidable confrontations.

And then you've got the supposedly highly educated music naturalist who exposes his lack of subject matter expertise by falsely misidentifying a musical creature as a prog elitist based on a hasty and superficial observation seeing something he personally doesn't like.

Skinny
birdman_handrub.gif

*rereads comments in this thread*
*checks chart*
*sees Rush is #1*
*sees Dream Theater is #2*
*confirms diagnosis*
_________________
2021 in full effect. Come drop me some recs. Y'all know what I like.

Fischman
RockMonster, JazzMeister, Bluesboy,ClassicalMaster

Gender: Male
Location: Land of Enchantment

Skinny wrote:

*rereads comments in this thread*
*checks chart*
*sees Rush is #1*
*sees Dream Theater is #2*
*confirms diagnosis*

Still hasty and inadequate jumping to conclusions. Knows nothing beyond that very limited data set.

Wrongfully assumed that those favorites and a distaste for Nirvans automatically means inability to appreciate simpler music and inherent elitism. But ignores that distaste for Nirvana was based on far more than just mind numbing simplicity.

Further field research would have shown great love for a wide range beyond prog, including some beautifully simple works by artists from Dan Fogelberg to The Carpenters to The Kinks.

Knows not that the misidentified prog elitist is at this moment relaxing with Enya.

dholl

Skinny wrote:

*rereads comments in this thread*
*checks chart*
*sees Rush is #1*
*sees Dream Theater is #2*
*confirms diagnosis*

haha

Fischman
RockMonster, JazzMeister, Bluesboy,ClassicalMaster

Gender: Male
Location: Land of Enchantment

carpents wrote:

All of those things are very different though, and I honestly get most of the latter but not really anger from Nirvana. Definitely anger towards record labels/the music industry, but like you said it falls more in the disgust/frustration spectrum.

I'm not going to pile on, because you're not 100% wrong. The only way out for Kurt was inside himself (which is I think the point you originally made) but the route to get there is different for everyone. The pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps doesn't work for everyone. I'm not an expert at all, but didn't Kurt also have a medical GI condition which was pretty unpleasant? Physical pain over long periods of time (with no successful treatment) is overwhelming.

Like craola said though, there are some of us who share the emotions that Nirvana sang about, and there is a strange comfort in knowing that other people feel the same. I highly doubt that Nirvana's music is driving people to commit suicide, even those who lionize Kurt. (Is that ultimately your problem with Kurt?)

All of those thing are only marginally different and they are all overwhelmingly negative, closely related, and mutually reinforcing in their negativity.

I never suggested the self reliant route. Any route that works is a good one.

No, I dont think Curt's music is actually driving people to suicide. I do understand the positive aspects of having someone to identify with. But identifying with someone who kills himself in the bloodiest way possible makes no sense. Time to find a better muse.

Tha1ChiefRocka
Yeah, well hey, I'm really sorry.

Location: Kansas

I know I said I was done posting here 6 pages ago, but I've got to say something about this:

Quote:

But identifying with someone who kills himself in the bloodiest way possible makes no sense.

It makes no sense that I can still identify with my Uncle?

You can't try to understand it, because, for most victims, it is inexplicable. It goes beyond just being "sad and angry". The only thing you can do is try to identify with it on some level. That hurts. It hurts more to not know why it happened. Empathy hurts too. To try and take on what that person must have been feeling, what could have driven them to do what they did, takes just as much of a toll as the death itself. This causes some self-reflection that can lead to some real revelations about yourself. Am I on the same path? Could I ever be capable of such a thing? All the speculation in the world is just hot air, so the only thing left is to say, "I don't know why it happened, but I know why it had to happen."

Furthermore, reducing anyone's identity down to the way they died is just ridiculous.

"Hey, Paul, did you hear that Billy died?"

"Yeah, it was from that excruciatingly painful bone marrow cancer. Too bad he couldn't beat that cancer."

20 years later

"Hey, Paul, did you know that it's been 20 years since Billy died?" "What do you remember about Billy?"

"Yeah, I remember he died from that excruciatingly painful bone marrow cancer. Too bad he couldn't beat that cancer."

Fischman
RockMonster, JazzMeister, Bluesboy,ClassicalMaster

Gender: Male
Location: Land of Enchantment

Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:

I know I said I was done posting here 6 pages ago, but I've got to say something about this:

Quote:

But identifying with someone who kills himself in the bloodiest way possible makes no sense.

It makes no sense that I can still identify with my Uncle?

You can't try to understand it, because, for most victims, it is inexplicable. It goes beyond just being "sad and angry". The only thing you can do is try to identify with it on some level. That hurts. It hurts more to not know why it happened. Empathy hurts too. To try and take on what that person must have been feeling, what could have driven them to do what they did, takes just as much of a toll as the death itself. This causes some self-reflection that can lead to some real revelations about yourself. Am I on the same path? Could I ever be capable of such a thing? All the speculation in the world is just hot air, so the only thing left is to say, "I don't know why it happened, but I know why it had to happen."

Furthermore, reducing anyone's identity down to the way they died is just ridiculous.

"Hey, Paul, did you hear that Billy died?"

"Yeah, it was from that excruciatingly painful bone marrow cancer. Too bad he couldn't beat that cancer."

20 years later

"Hey, Paul, did you know that it's been 20 years since Billy died?" "What do you remember about Billy?"

"Yeah, I remember he died from that excruciatingly painful bone marrow cancer. Too bad he couldn't beat that cancer."

That example misses the point. It's not about reducing an identity to how someone died, but rather acknowledging that it is at least partially linked to what they did.

Bone narrow cancer is something that happens to you. Suicide is something you do. Big difference there. And not only did Curt do it, he chose to do it in the messiest way possible.

The self reflection is very instructive. It's clearly a path you don't want to be on, so it makes no sense to reverse one who is, including his "art" which lines the path.

Tha1ChiefRocka
Yeah, well hey, I'm really sorry.

Location: Kansas

A mental disease is still a disease. It has symptoms and ways in which it leads to death. People with physical diseases can choose to end their lives if they are in pain, and some do.

Also, this isn't about Kurt Cobain anymore. You said "someone". That someone happens to be my family member. You also keep saying things like, "in the messiest way possible" which is completely crude and infantile. Especially for people that have had this happen in their family.