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Album of the day (#2894): Nevermind by Nirvana

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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash



Age: 24
Location: Massachusetts
United States

#121 | Posted: 12/02/2018 20:25 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Agreed Chief. For some reason as a society we treat diseases of the brain differently from diseases of any other organ, and blame people in a way we don't for most other diseases. Meanwhile, in part because it is the most complex organ, more types of things can go wrong more easily in the brain than in any other part of the body.

Anyway, throwback to page 8:

Fischman wrote:
baystateoftheart wrote:
Fischman wrote:
The irony here is that those who are most offended by the mention of this in unadulterated terms are the ones who get into the music the most, thus getting their vicarious catharsis from someone else's inner demons.

Nobody seemed to bee to concerned with Cobain's pain until he killed himself. Then all of a sudden, they must face that they were using him for their own purposes without concern for where all this personal catharsis was coming from.

Yet somehow, since I use direct language, I'm the insensitive one, even though I am the one who could tell that something was amiss and actually expressed concern about it before the tragedy.


Lol. A lot of the people who didn't like what you said, myself included, were kids or unborn when Nevermind came out, so I don't see how that argument makes any sense. But very cool that you are so invested in claiming the moral high ground.

Honestly this discussion isn't going anywhere constructive and that's been true for a while. How about we wrap it up?


1. I'm not trying to claim the moral high ground. I am just pointing out that others who are trying to claim the moral high ground are doing so without thinking it through, or are doing so in a purely selfish manner.

2. It's not about when someone was born. It's about their consumption of the product without consideration for what it took to produce that product. This is independent of time.

3. Yes, I'm perfectly happy to drop this.

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sethmadsen
Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis


Gender: Male
Age: 34
Location: Ground Control
United States

#122 | Posted: 12/02/2018 21:28 | Post subject: Reply with quote
I suppose to help get this back on track to the music:

I used to have this album in my top 10. Still makes my top 20 (some bits of it aren't as strong as they could be)... overall the songwriting and emotional impact (not just angst... go home if all you think about is angst when you hear this record)... idk... the emotional power on this record and the way emotion is used in Nirvana's work in general probably are only matched by The Doors and Beethoven (in my experience). The music is good enough (not the best), but the emotion is nearly ever even touched. It is easily some of the most emotional music I've heard and it's just a more consistent album (imo) than In Utero (barely) and Bleach (musically) - but all three are exploding with raw/real emotion... and for that I really appreciate Nirvana and this album.

For me, this is what makes it difficult to get into a band like Korn... I feel like Nirvana reached this raw emotional/non-fake thing, and Korn just feels like imitation to me (emotionally, not musically). It felt like everyone tried to top Nirvana from this standpoint and a few came close, but I really don't think anyone else came on top. It's honest, pure, and true... but most importantly extreme without seeming fake (to me).

All of this is subjective of course.
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Fischman
RockMonster, JazzMeister and ClassicalMaster



United States

#123 | Posted: 12/02/2018 22:27 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:
A mental disease is still a disease. It has symptoms and ways in which it leads to death. People with physical diseases can choose to end their lives if they are in pain, and some do.

Also, this isn't about Kurt Cobain anymore. You said "someone". That someone happens to be my family member. You also keep saying things like, "in the messiest way possible" which is completely crude and infantile. Especially for people that have had this happen in their family.


The key difference still remains. In one, it happens to you and in the other you make it happe (at least the final stage). In one deliberate action is required while in the other, no action is required, it's just gonna run its course.

And theres nothing "infantile" about the truth. Nor was "in the messiest way possible" crude. In fact, that was really the mildest way possible to describe the manner in which he took his life. Crude would have been something like "splattered his brains all over the ceiling." I deliberately avoided such language and spoke in generic, nondescript terms. But rather than see that, you twist it into somehow it isn't.

The fact that some "choose to end the pain" is actually quite okay with me. I even believe th as t there are circumstances that lead perfectly same people to do this. It's your life, you should be able to choose how and when it ends. But if you just need to check out one last time, there are far better ways than a shotgun. Not even just a gun, but acshotgun?!? As I said, the messiest possible way.
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Fischman
RockMonster, JazzMeister and ClassicalMaster



United States

#124 | Posted: 12/02/2018 22:35 | Post subject: Reply with quote
baystateoftheart wrote:
Agreed Chief. For some reason as a society we treat diseases of the brain differently from diseases of any other organ, and blame people in a way we don't for most other diseases. Meanwhile, in part because it is the most complex organ, more types of things can go wrong more easily in the brain than in any other part of the body.

Anyway, throwback to page 8:

Fischman wrote:
baystateoftheart wrote:
Fischman wrote:
The irony here is that those who are most offended by the mention of this in unadulterated terms are the ones who get into the music the most, thus getting their vicarious catharsis from someone else's inner demons.

Nobody seemed to bee to concerned with Cobain's pain until he killed himself. Then all of a sudden, they must face that they were using him for their own purposes without concern for where all this personal catharsis was coming from.

Yet somehow, since I use direct language, I'm the insensitive one, even though I am the one who could tell that something was amiss and actually expressed concern about it before the tragedy.


Lol. A lot of the people who didn't like what you said, myself included, were kids or unborn when Nevermind came out, so I don't see how that argument makes any sense. But very cool that you are so invested in claiming the moral high ground.

Honestly this discussion isn't going anywhere constructive and that's been true for a while. How about we wrap it up?


1. I'm not trying to claim the moral high ground. I am just pointing out that others who are trying to claim the moral high ground are doing so without thinking it through, or are doing so in a purely selfish manner.

2. It's not about when someone was born. It's about their consumption of the product without consideration for what it took to produce that product. This is independent of time.

3. Yes, I'm perfectly happy to drop this.


And I was perfectly happy to drop it.

But subsequent posts ranged from false attribution to name calling to honest questions posed directly to me.

I know that folks here and I aren't going to see this the same way, either musically or philosophically, and that's okay. In that regard, y'all finish up as you see fit and I'll bow out. But when people misinterpret or put false words in my mouth, I'll likely respond. If someone asks me a direct, honest question. I'll definitely respond.
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Tap
to resume download


Gender: Male
Age: 33
United States

#125 | Posted: 12/02/2018 22:44 | Post subject: Reply with quote
ok so now that we've gotten to the point where someone has confirmed that they have a personal connection to suicide through a family member and that the response to that has been to be even more tasteless about the subject, maybe it's time to lock the thread?
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Fischman
RockMonster, JazzMeister and ClassicalMaster



United States

#126 | Posted: 12/02/2018 22:56 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Tap wrote:
ok so now that we've gotten to the point where someone has confirmed that they have a personal connection to suicide through a family member and that the response to that has been to be even more tasteless about the subject, maybe it's time to lock the thread?


1. And everyone's assuming I don't have a similar personal connection. I have seen suicide up close and personal, from the inside, more than once. Including finding the body. You want personal connection and associated trauma, there it is.

2. That person is the one who made the accusation of being "infantile" based on language used, which was actually the mildest possible language available to make the point. So yes, the response was appropriate as it was necessary to demonstrate the falseness of that accusation. Again, having seen what I've seen, personally and up close, in all it's horrific glory, it's not like I'm incapable of understanding what I'm saying or having empathy with those who might hear it.
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Tha1ChiefRocka
I'm A Cowboy On My Own Trip



Location: Kansas
United States

#127 | Posted: 12/02/2018 23:18 | Post subject: Reply with quote
You mentioned blowing his head off twice in early posts and in different ways.

It's not an accusation to describe somone's words.
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Fischman
RockMonster, JazzMeister and ClassicalMaster



United States

#128 | Posted: 12/02/2018 23:22 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:
You mentioned blowing his head off twice in early posts and in different ways.

It's not an accusation to describe somone's words.


I though you were referring to my most recent post since you were responding to that particular post at that particular time AND you quoted "messiest way possible", so the only logical conclusion was that that's what you were calling infantile, not a post from ten pages ago that you didn't quote. I had already apologized for using that language earlier. I apologize again for starting off in that manner.


Last edited by Fischman on 12/03/2018 04:05; edited 1 time in total
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StreetSpirit



Gender: Male
Location: LA
United States

#129 | Posted: 12/03/2018 03:48 | Post subject: Reply with quote
StreetSpirit wrote:
I wouldn't say AAL jinxed it...he blessed it. This has been the best thread in recent memory.
baystateoftheart wrote:
Best how? In terms of pure entertainment value? Because most of it has been pretty off-topic. Instead of ten pages of digging into the album, we had a couple pages of musical discussion and a massive argument about mental health. It might not belong on either, but I’d sooner add it to a list of worst recent threads than a list of best recent threads.

Honestly when was the last time a thread went 10 pages that was actually discussing music? Oh right, years ago. If digging into an album is what you're looking for, then I suggest resurrecting Album Discussion Party (I'm game).

And yes, this thread has been great. It has controversy and it's brought out character, which makes it interesting. Yes it has been a joy to read, and occasionally contribute. And I wouldn't say it's off-topic. There have been a few music-related questions posed here. Can music also be therapy? Did Cobain discredit himself and his music by committing suicide? Would Cobain have taken the band in a prog direction? Etc. Sure some controversial and sensitive topics have been brought up, and it's been dicey at times. But again, that makes it interesting. Make BEA interesting again.

I'm not sure what is left to say here.

Sorry for your loss, Rocka

Fischman, agree to disagree.
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dholl





#130 | Posted: 12/03/2018 12:05 | Post subject: Reply with quote
StreetSpirit wrote:
Honestly when was the last time a thread went 10 pages that was actually discussing music? Oh right, years ago. If digging into an album is what you're looking for, then I suggest resurrecting Album Discussion Party (I'm game).

And yes, this thread has been great. It has controversy and it's brought out character, which makes it interesting. Yes it has been a joy to read, and occasionally contribute. And I wouldn't say it's off-topic. There have been a few music-related questions posed here. Can music also be therapy? Did Cobain discredit himself and his music by committing suicide? Would Cobain have taken the band in a prog direction? Etc. Sure some controversial and sensitive topics have been brought up, and it's been dicey at times. But again, that makes it interesting. Make BEA interesting again.

I'm not sure what is left to say here.

Sorry for your loss, Rocka

Fischman, agree to disagree.


Good post and agreed.
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