Iconic Album Standoff #1

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Poll: Iconic Album Standoff #1
The Velvet Underground And Nico
55%
 55%  [19]
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
44%
 44%  [15]
Total Votes : 34

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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



Location: Ground Control
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  • #1
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 05:50
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Once you tally up the score based on analysis described below, vote for which accomplishes the following the best:

This is a game designed to discuss the merits of the following two icons of music. This is not to vote for your favorite, rather to vote which album meets the following criteria.

Please give a score of 1 to 5... 1 being weakest and 5 being strongest to each area. Please try and rate the album itself and not compare one with the other (attempting to be as objective as possible). Then please give your reason with evidence of your claim.

For best results, quote this and make notes in each section below with your score of 1 to 5:

Overall Score:


The Velvet Underground And Nico by The ...d And Nico

1) Composition Score:
Compositionally extraordinary relative to others of the period, Rock history, All time

2) Technical Score:
Technically extraordinary relative to others of the period, Rock history, All time

3) Emotional Score:
Any emotional expressiveness from their songs and if/how it was among the most affecting/impinging and stands out from most/all others as historically great/amazing

4) Conceptual/Intellect Score:
Any conceptual expressiveness from their songs and if/how it was among the most compelling and stands out from most/all others as historically great/amazing

5) Creative Score:
Developed a creative idea(s) in such a way that it was explored to a great degree/extent or culminated... (depth)

6) Emotional Depth Score:
Expressed an emotional state(s) in such a way that it was explored, particularly experiental, given great insight, dimension, immersive... (depth)

7) Conceptual/Intellectual Depth:
Expressed a concept(s) in such a way that it was explored, particularly experiential, given great insight, dimension, immersive... (depth)

Overall Score:


Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band by The Beatles

1) Composition Score:
Compositionally extraordinary relative to others of the period, Rock history, All time

2) Technical Score:
Technically extraordinary relative to others of the period, Rock history, All time

3) Emotional Score:
Any emotional expressiveness from their songs and if/how it was among the most affecting/impinging and stands out from most/all others as historically great/amazing

4) Conceptual/Intellect Score:
Any conceptual expressiveness from their songs and if/how it was among the most compelling and stands out from most/all others as historically great/amazing

5) Creative Score:
Developed a creative idea(s) in such a way that it was explored to a great degree/extent or culminated... (depth)

6) Emotional Depth Score:
Expressed an emotional state(s) in such a way that it was explored, particularly experiental, given great insight, dimension, immersive... (depth)

7) Conceptual/Intellectual Depth:
Expressed a concept(s) in such a way that it was explored, particularly experiential, given great insight, dimension, immersive... (depth)


Last edited by RoundTheBend on 11/18/2018 15:11; edited 2 times in total
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Skinny
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  • #2
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 11:18
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OK, I read all of that and am still none the wiser. Every single point essentially just meant, "sounds good". In which case, The VU & Nico shits all over Sgt. Pepper's. Obviously, other people disagree. Compositionally, they both feature pretty standard pop songs, but at least The VU & Nico doesn't contain 'When I'm Sixty-Four'.
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



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  • #3
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 15:07
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Skinny wrote:
OK, I read all of that and am still none the wiser. Every single point essentially just meant, "sounds good". In which case, The VU & Nico shits all over Sgt. Pepper's. Obviously, other people disagree. Compositionally, they both feature pretty standard pop songs, but at least The VU & Nico doesn't contain 'When I'm Sixty-Four'.


Awesome start. If you'd like, I'd love to see specific examples in the format provided for both and how you came to that conclusion (does one song really through it off... perhaps explain why clarinet trios are dumb?). I'd love to see what shits all over looks like... well maybe I actually don't want to see it, but maybe the result of it... Laughing Again this isn't which album is your favorite, rather which album excels in the following areas:

1) Composition
2) Unique/innovative techniques used musically, instrumentally, vocally, etc.
3) Examples of emotive outpours - what moves you when you listen to it emotionally?
4) What examples of intellect do you spot?
5) What creative ideas were used that perhaps were never used before.
6) How deep did the emotion go?
7) How deep did the intellect go?
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Sandinistar




Location: NYC
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  • #4
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 15:33
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There's way too much overlap between those categories to really have a meaningful discussion about each one, IMO... That said, no matter how great Sgt Pepper's is, I would find it hard to argue it is better than VU & Nico in any of these categories (except maybe composition?)
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Yann



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Location: France
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  • #5
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 15:36
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Skinny didn't vote, and I had to vote for Sgt Pepper. I love both albums and they're both have tremendous strengths. It's just that for historical impact, Sgt pepper wins, sorry
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baystateoftheart
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Age: 29
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  • #6
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 15:59
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So the question seems to be "which album is better if judged not by your own criteria, but by AfterHours' criteria as adapted by Seth?" Unfortunately, that's not a question I'm particularly interested in answering.

sethmadsen wrote:
(attempting to be as objective as possible)

Brick wall
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



Location: Ground Control
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  • #7
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 16:05
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baystateoftheart wrote:
So the question seems to be "which album is better if judged not by your own criteria, but by AfterHours' criteria as adapted by Seth?" Unfortunately, that's not a question I'm particularly interested in answering.

Brick wall


Completely understandable. I thought I'd pose the question to everyone and potentially get a pool of feedback. I think a lot of users think about these things at one level or another when they rate music, and perhaps it could be reworded... but alas, that may indeed be dry for most.

I suppose when I say objective I don't mean 100% objective (because that's impossible), but what I do mean is treat it as you would a paper in college. You can't just bullshit. You have to back it up with evidence of your argument as you would your paper on Martin Luther not being the only source of German of today, but that he was part of a complex web of influences, and that he himself was influenced by others. (some claim Martin Luther standardized German... single-handedly, and I wrote a paper tearing that idea down, giving linguistic examples and quotes from Martin Luther to the contrary.)


Last edited by RoundTheBend on 11/18/2018 16:15; edited 1 time in total
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



Location: Ground Control
United States

  • #8
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 16:08
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Sandinistar wrote:
There's way too much overlap between those categories to really have a meaningful discussion about each one, IMO... That said, no matter how great Sgt Pepper's is, I would find it hard to argue it is better than VU & Nico in any of these categories (except maybe composition?)


Great question. I suppose until you analyze it and ask good questions as you do, you won't know for sure. (This is what brought me back to this site back in 2016... throwing out all biases of what should be, what do albums rank when you rate each song on an album and what result do I get when I average each song out... I had some surprises to my own taste).

If you can give examples for each area great - if the last two especially are tedious, I completely understand (in a way I feel they are answered already... but I suppose one focuses on intensity and the other depth/quality.

I'm working on my analysis and probably won't be done for a bit. This isn't an "easy" conclusion to come to in my opinion... (both are highly ranked/great works) a quick conclusion might mean bias was used/time wasn't taken to really contemplate each area/give good examples.
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theblueboy





  • #9
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 17:04
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I cant go through the criteria in depth as I don't have the brainpower but thanks for posing this question Very Happy

Weirdly I was thinking about a similar comparison between the Beatles and Velvets earlier today before I saw this. Both comparable in terms of incredible influence but I think the influence of the Beatles was greater (and is the influence of Kraftwerk greater than both?)

I would say the Beatles were more interesting overall in terms of the counter-cultural ideas they assimilated and their imagination in doing so. Its easy to under-estimate this due to the more outrageous/shocking themes in Velvet underground songs. But, in their own way, the Beatles were just as bold. Their idealism, though a bit naïve at times, I feel has more staying power than the Velvets cynicism.

Also, I think the Beatles were much more sophisticated and subtle compositionally. The Velvets had more brute force but for me this isn't so important. The Beatles expressed their ideas with ample force. Also, I don't think you can measure the quality of their music by emotional intensity when it is often their playfulness, lightness and imagination that makes them so enjoyable.

So yeah, I'll take the charm of the Beatles over the violence of the Velvets any day.
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theblueboy





  • #10
  • Posted: 11/18/2018 18:02
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Just realised some interesting points of comparison:

Getting better vs There She Goes ( domestic violence)
Lucy in the sky vs Heroine (drug use)
Lovely Rita vs Venus in furs (kinky stuff)

In each case I think the Beatles are more musically and lyrically interesting.
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