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Get To Know A Top 10: January Thread - Tap

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Poll: Which album is your favorite? Please listen to all ten before voting.
Return Of Fenn O'Berg by Fenn O'Berg
0%
 0%  [0]
Fantasmes Ou L'Histoire De Blanche-Neige by Jacques Lejeune
0%
 0%  [0]
Super æ by Boredoms
0%
 0%  [0]
Tago Mago by Can
50%
 50%  [6]
Aviary by Julia Holter
8%
 8%  [1]
Heave To by Olivia Block
0%
 0%  [0]
Syro by Aphex Twin
0%
 0%  [0]
Sung Tongs by Animal Collective
33%
 33%  [4]
Let My Children Hear Music by Charles Mingus
8%
 8%  [1]
Wild Why by Wobbly
0%
 0%  [0]
Total Votes : 12

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Age: 33
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#41 | Posted: 01/06/2019 15:43 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Fischman wrote:
With further apology to Tap, I will make one final appeal to rational thought on your part.


It's really no problem! And while I do get what you meant, I also do understand why people would need to challenge what you said, like I did earlier re: framing rapping as talking. So I would disagree that it's an issue of fragility. But yeah I've gotten in plenty of arguments here so it'd be BS for me to be like "arguing? in my thread?!", I just hope everybody makes sure to read the 2,500 words I wrote on Syro lol, and the Animal Collective one too, I'm also very very happy with that. And the Mingus one, I did some real research and typed out things from an actual book! But actually I'm really glad this argument happened because what Skinny was saying about there being more of an "in the moment" spirit today makes a lot of sense

Skinny wrote:
I remember those sorts of adverts well, multi-CD boxsets that you could order over the phone for a one-time, cut-down price. I remember hearing clips of certain huge hits for the first time on those adverts, and believing those hits to be ubiquitous, songs that everybody everywhere would know, because as a child recognising that your own experiences are different to everyone else's is somewhat more difficult. (Mr. Mister's 'Broken Wings', in particular, springs to mind, because I've spoken to a number of people my age about those adverts and that song in the years since and yet apparently I'm the only person who remembers them.) And I guess the difference is that only people who were watching those channels at those times would have access to those memories. But today, most people I know have a Spotify account, or access to somebody else's, and Spotify have their carefully manicured era- or genre-specific playlists that people can choose to either engage with or ignore, as they see fit. Whereas, if I'm up late watching Are You Afraid of the Dark? or whatever and an advert comes on for an 8-disc Hits of the '80s collection and plays clips of Mr. Mister and Cyndi Lauper and Culture Club and John Cougar Mellencamp, I am less likely to actively avoid or choose to ignore that advert. If I changed the channel, I'd be explicitly opting out, whereas to play a Spotify playlist I have to explicitly opt in. But it's telling that marketing execs believed (and correctly too, I assume) that some people would feel they needed an 8-disc, one-artist one-song, collection of hits from a particular decade to give them access to the music they loved (or wanted to love), and how that still translates today into playlists with that same premise and basic intention that attract thousands of followers on Spotify.

So, you mentioned of that period, when those adverts would pop up on TV, that "all previous time was happening at once on top of and inside of what was happening now", based on the idea that we had access to old music and old television. But is that still the case? I mean, ostensibly nothing has changed. But, as a child, I was aware of and had seen children's films and television from the decades before I was born, as had all of my friends; I now work in a school, and children are almost to a person unaware of much of anything from before their time, at least in terms of cartoons and films. They may have seen The Lion King or Shrek (which makes me feel super old, to think of that film as being made before most of my students were born), but they are exceptions. In fact, much more than the kids of my generation (I'm 29), children these days seem to live in the now and the what's next, largely unaware of what came before. I find it exciting, asking the kids what music they're listening to and checking it out, but even direct antecedents of the artists they are listening to are nonentities to them. One student was listening to slowthai the other day, and I commented on how much he sounded like Dizzee Rascal, to a bewildered response. I don't think this is a bad thing, nor do I think it's necessarily a good thing. I just think you make a solid point, that growing up when we did meant that we were kind of forced to not only enjoy what was happening then, but be subjected to some of the stuff that had happened before, whereas access to everything is now so readily available that kids have no need to delve into a past that they can't relate to.

Anyway, I'm rambling, and I'm not even sure I've completely understood your point - just some observations.


This is good to bring up because it totally related to something I'd read and been thinking about lately, you are starting to see a re-emergence of identities that can be caricatured:

https://www.vulture.com/2018/12/the-gat...d-rap.html

Quote:
Once a year, on career day, Nick Catchdubs, the DJ, producer, and founder of the independent record label Fool’s Gold, drives across the Hudson River to the New Jersey school where his mom teaches. He visits fourth, fifth, and sixth-grade classrooms and every year he asks his students the same two questions: “What music are you listening to? And how do you listen to it?”

He does it mostly out of curiosity, “Not in a vampire let me feast on the blood of the young way, but your life is totally different than mine,” he says. They’re teenagers from the suburbs; he lives in the city, and works within the music industry. This year they told him they were listening to XXXTentacion, 6ix9ine, and the Migos. And how do the kids find these artists? They just go on SoundCloud and search the phrase “sad music.”


But like there are also the music nerds out there who are 15 and have an awareness of an incredibly wide amount of music, it's weird. And it's complicated, the identity formation stuff never totally went away (that's why the media loved Juggalos). It's a big topic, one to think about. I guess when I was growing up all time was existing on an equal playing field, but now "the now" has sort of re-asserted itself with an overwhelming amount of original content, crowding out the view so that it becomes harder to see the past again. But yeah, those are some important observations you shared there Skinny, thanks!
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Fischman
RockMonster, JazzMeister and ClassicalMaster



United States

#42 | Posted: 01/06/2019 16:26 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Tap wrote:
It's really no problem! And while I do get what you meant, I also do understand why people would need to challenge what you said, like I did earlier re: framing rapping as talking. So I would disagree that it's an issue of fragility. But yeah I've gotten in plenty of arguments here so it'd be BS for me to be like "arguing? in my thread?!", I just hope everybody makes sure to read the 2,500 words I wrote on Syro lol, and the Animal Collective one too, I'm also very very happy with that. But actually I'm really glad this argument happened because what Skinny was saying about there being more of an "in the moment" spirit today makes a lot of sense


I'm actually looking forward to reading all your words on each of these albums... but I'd like to wait until after my first listen with just my own ears. Then, I can compare your more in depth, intimate interpretation (after all, these are your favourites and you've obviously put a lot of careful thought into them) with my neophyte exposure as most of these are new to me. I find that an "untainted" listen followed by a second listen with the benefit of a take from a truly thoughtful fan to be a beneficial path. I saw you had a very thorough take on the Wobbly on another thread and got a lot out of reading it between listens.

3 down, 7 to go. In the past, I would have blazed through them much faster, but currently I'm trying to absorb each more fully befor moving on.
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Skinny
Black Belt in Shaq-Fu




#43 | Posted: 01/06/2019 20:06 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Tap wrote:
It's really no problem! And while I do get what you meant, I also do understand why people would need to challenge what you said, like I did earlier re: framing rapping as talking. So I would disagree that it's an issue of fragility. But yeah I've gotten in plenty of arguments here so it'd be BS for me to be like "arguing? in my thread?!", I just hope everybody makes sure to read the 2,500 words I wrote on Syro lol, and the Animal Collective one too, I'm also very very happy with that. And the Mingus one, I did some real research and typed out things from an actual book! But actually I'm really glad this argument happened because what Skinny was saying about there being more of an "in the moment" spirit today makes a lot of sense

Skinny wrote:
I remember those sorts of adverts well, multi-CD boxsets that you could order over the phone for a one-time, cut-down price. I remember hearing clips of certain huge hits for the first time on those adverts, and believing those hits to be ubiquitous, songs that everybody everywhere would know, because as a child recognising that your own experiences are different to everyone else's is somewhat more difficult. (Mr. Mister's 'Broken Wings', in particular, springs to mind, because I've spoken to a number of people my age about those adverts and that song in the years since and yet apparently I'm the only person who remembers them.) And I guess the difference is that only people who were watching those channels at those times would have access to those memories. But today, most people I know have a Spotify account, or access to somebody else's, and Spotify have their carefully manicured era- or genre-specific playlists that people can choose to either engage with or ignore, as they see fit. Whereas, if I'm up late watching Are You Afraid of the Dark? or whatever and an advert comes on for an 8-disc Hits of the '80s collection and plays clips of Mr. Mister and Cyndi Lauper and Culture Club and John Cougar Mellencamp, I am less likely to actively avoid or choose to ignore that advert. If I changed the channel, I'd be explicitly opting out, whereas to play a Spotify playlist I have to explicitly opt in. But it's telling that marketing execs believed (and correctly too, I assume) that some people would feel they needed an 8-disc, one-artist one-song, collection of hits from a particular decade to give them access to the music they loved (or wanted to love), and how that still translates today into playlists with that same premise and basic intention that attract thousands of followers on Spotify.

So, you mentioned of that period, when those adverts would pop up on TV, that "all previous time was happening at once on top of and inside of what was happening now", based on the idea that we had access to old music and old television. But is that still the case? I mean, ostensibly nothing has changed. But, as a child, I was aware of and had seen children's films and television from the decades before I was born, as had all of my friends; I now work in a school, and children are almost to a person unaware of much of anything from before their time, at least in terms of cartoons and films. They may have seen The Lion King or Shrek (which makes me feel super old, to think of that film as being made before most of my students were born), but they are exceptions. In fact, much more than the kids of my generation (I'm 29), children these days seem to live in the now and the what's next, largely unaware of what came before. I find it exciting, asking the kids what music they're listening to and checking it out, but even direct antecedents of the artists they are listening to are nonentities to them. One student was listening to slowthai the other day, and I commented on how much he sounded like Dizzee Rascal, to a bewildered response. I don't think this is a bad thing, nor do I think it's necessarily a good thing. I just think you make a solid point, that growing up when we did meant that we were kind of forced to not only enjoy what was happening then, but be subjected to some of the stuff that had happened before, whereas access to everything is now so readily available that kids have no need to delve into a past that they can't relate to.

Anyway, I'm rambling, and I'm not even sure I've completely understood your point - just some observations.


This is good to bring up because it totally related to something I'd read and been thinking about lately, you are starting to see a re-emergence of identities that can be caricatured:

https://www.vulture.com/2018/12/the-gat...d-rap.html

Quote:
Once a year, on career day, Nick Catchdubs, the DJ, producer, and founder of the independent record label Fool’s Gold, drives across the Hudson River to the New Jersey school where his mom teaches. He visits fourth, fifth, and sixth-grade classrooms and every year he asks his students the same two questions: “What music are you listening to? And how do you listen to it?”

He does it mostly out of curiosity, “Not in a vampire let me feast on the blood of the young way, but your life is totally different than mine,” he says. They’re teenagers from the suburbs; he lives in the city, and works within the music industry. This year they told him they were listening to XXXTentacion, 6ix9ine, and the Migos. And how do the kids find these artists? They just go on SoundCloud and search the phrase “sad music.”


But like there are also the music nerds out there who are 15 and have an awareness of an incredibly wide amount of music, it's weird. And it's complicated, the identity formation stuff never totally went away (that's why the media loved Juggalos). It's a big topic, one to think about. I guess when I was growing up all time was existing on an equal playing field, but now "the now" has sort of re-asserted itself with an overwhelming amount of original content, crowding out the view so that it becomes harder to see the past again. But yeah, those are some important observations you shared there Skinny, thanks!


Without wanting to get too bogged down in what children listen to these days, all three names mentioned in said article are also three names that pop up constantly when I talk to children (alongside native, Chief Keef-/Giggs-influenced, UK drill artists like Skengdo, 67, Headie One, Smuggzy Ace/23 Drillas, LD, Harlem Spartans, and others whose main medium for connecting with young fans is generally YouTube). I mentioned to one child that I refused to listen to XXXTentacion on account of the horrifying allegations made against him, and said child was totally unaware of these. This was not an isolated incident, either. Because I find new music via now semi-traditional methods of blogs and message boards, where contextual information about artists largely comes as standard, kids who find these artists via Soundcloud, Spotify or YouTube recommended songs algorithms know next to nothing about them outside of their music, which is at once very refreshing and more than slightly worrying. Despite mainstream publications ignoring/boycotting controversial artists such as those mentioned above, as well as the likes of Kodak Black and YoungBoy NBA, to name a couple of others, kids are still devouring their music because they have zero interest in old-school methods of finding new music. They don't use Twitter, let alone Facebook, but rather Snapchat and Instagram, platforms that rely less on words (and, crucially, aren't tainted by older generations talking down to them) and more on moods and images. The kids I teach were gutted when XXXTentacion died, and I felt it my duty to give them a more balanced view of the person they were idolising, touching on his crimes and imploring them to read about him before granting him hero status. Some have vowed to stop listening to him, but for the most part he is still incredibly popular, not because kids don't care about what he's done particularly, but because they don't know. Obviously the children I work with represents a relatively small sample size, but I feel that these particular issues are indicative of a wider sea change that traditional major record labels are now getting to grips with, at least quicker than I am.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash



Age: 24
Location: Massachusetts
United States

#44 | Posted: 01/07/2019 00:43 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Skinny wrote:
Without wanting to get too bogged down in what children listen to these days, all three names mentioned in said article are also three names that pop up constantly when I talk to children (alongside native, Chief Keef-/Giggs-influenced, UK drill artists like Skengdo, 67, Headie One, Smuggzy Ace/23 Drillas, LD, Harlem Spartans, and others whose main medium for connecting with young fans is generally YouTube). I mentioned to one child that I refused to listen to XXXTentacion on account of the horrifying allegations made against him, and said child was totally unaware of these. This was not an isolated incident, either. Because I find new music via now semi-traditional methods of blogs and message boards, where contextual information about artists largely comes as standard, kids who find these artists via Soundcloud, Spotify or YouTube recommended songs algorithms know next to nothing about them outside of their music, which is at once very refreshing and more than slightly worrying. Despite mainstream publications ignoring/boycotting controversial artists such as those mentioned above, as well as the likes of Kodak Black and YoungBoy NBA, to name a couple of others, kids are still devouring their music because they have zero interest in old-school methods of finding new music. They don't use Twitter, let alone Facebook, but rather Snapchat and Instagram, platforms that rely less on words (and, crucially, aren't tainted by older generations talking down to them) and more on moods and images. The kids I teach were gutted when XXXTentacion died, and I felt it my duty to give them a more balanced view of the person they were idolising, touching on his crimes and imploring them to read about him before granting him hero status. Some have vowed to stop listening to him, but for the most part he is still incredibly popular, not because kids don't care about what he's done particularly, but because they don't know. Obviously the children I work with represents a relatively small sample size, but I feel that these particular issues are indicative of a wider sea change that traditional major record labels are now getting to grips with, at least quicker than I am.


I'm with you on XXXTentacion. But Kodak Black is most likely a serial sexual assailant, and you don't refuse to listen to him. Is that in part about one of them making emo rap and the other making the hard-edged trap you prefer? Or is it simply that there's enough of a difference in degree of evil? Not advocating for a change in your listening behavior, just trying to understand the logic.

Also, while many of those kids may not know, there are also legions online who do know and are apologists for his heinous crimes. And that makes me very concerned.
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Black Belt in Shaq-Fu




#45 | Posted: 01/07/2019 02:12 | Post subject: Reply with quote
baystateoftheart wrote:
I'm with you on XXXTentacion. But Kodak Black is most likely a serial sexual assailant, and you don't refuse to listen to him. Is that in part about one of them making emo rap and the other making the hard-edged trap you prefer? Or is it simply that there's enough of a difference in degree of evil? Not advocating for a change in your listening behavior, just trying to understand the logic.

Also, while many of those kids may not know, there are also legions online who do know and are apologists for his heinous crimes. And that makes me very concerned.


The main difference as far as I can tell - and I've asked myself this plenty of times - is that I was already a Kodak fan years before the allegations emerged, and I actually did stop listening to Kodak for a time because of them. Kodak Black was already blowing up long before the allegations emerged. XXXTentacion's rise was intrinsically linked to the allegations made against him; the reason anybody initially knew his name was because of the notoriety. This doesn't excuse anything. The reason I never made a 2017 chart is that I struggled to reconcile my favourite record of the year being by Kodak Black with not wanting to make a dishonest chart. I also hadn't thought about him or his music until a friend showed me the recent singles, which are excellent. I still should know better than promoting his music on these forums, though. But I guess the way I convince myself that it is in some way acceptable for me to listen to his music is by telling myself that I'm an adult who has looked at all of the available information, and has made a choice - for better or worse - that my appreciating his music in no way equates to supporting his actions. I didn't avoid mentioning his name in the above context despite knowing that a question like this could emerge. I can separate art from artist and try to avoid, where possible, putting money into an artist's pocket. I can listen to Kodak's music and still accept he is probably a terrible human being. I'm not entirely sure that a 13-year-old necessarily has the capacity to do the same.

But yeah, it's a fair question and one I've spent plenty of time wrestling with, without managing to come up with a satisfying answer. It's something I need to work harder to get right.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash



Age: 24
Location: Massachusetts
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#46 | Posted: 01/07/2019 03:14 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Skinny wrote:
baystateoftheart wrote:
I'm with you on XXXTentacion. But Kodak Black is most likely a serial sexual assailant, and you don't refuse to listen to him. Is that in part about one of them making emo rap and the other making the hard-edged trap you prefer? Or is it simply that there's enough of a difference in degree of evil? Not advocating for a change in your listening behavior, just trying to understand the logic.

Also, while many of those kids may not know, there are also legions online who do know and are apologists for his heinous crimes. And that makes me very concerned.


The main difference as far as I can tell - and I've asked myself this plenty of times - is that I was already a Kodak fan years before the allegations emerged, and I actually did stop listening to Kodak for a time because of them. Kodak Black was already blowing up long before the allegations emerged. XXXTentacion's rise was intrinsically linked to the allegations made against him; the reason anybody initially knew his name was because of the notoriety. This doesn't excuse anything. The reason I never made a 2017 chart is that I struggled to reconcile my favourite record of the year being by Kodak Black with not wanting to make a dishonest chart. I also hadn't thought about him or his music until a friend showed me the recent singles, which are excellent. I still should know better than promoting his music on these forums, though. But I guess the way I convince myself that it is in some way acceptable for me to listen to his music is by telling myself that I'm an adult who has looked at all of the available information, and has made a choice - for better or worse - that my appreciating his music in no way equates to supporting his actions. I didn't avoid mentioning his name in the above context despite knowing that a question like this could emerge. I can separate art from artist and try to avoid, where possible, putting money into an artist's pocket. I can listen to Kodak's music and still accept he is probably a terrible human being. I'm not entirely sure that a 13-year-old necessarily has the capacity to do the same.

But yeah, it's a fair question and one I've spent plenty of time wrestling with, without managing to come up with a satisfying answer. It's something I need to work harder to get right.


For a while I've relied on: is what makes the artist a terrible person manifested in the art? For instance, Miles Davis' work doesn't evoke him beating his wife, so it's not hard for me to separate the art and the artist. Kodak Black's nuclear-grade lyrical misogyny doesn't allow me to do that, so he's not in my library except for as a feature. As another example, a few months ago I wrestled over whether to listen to a bunch of neo-folk and black metal artists and decided I couldn't because of just how deeply their fascist ideology was ingrained in their music, even though most of it is far from overt to anyone who hasn't read about it (see second post from bottom in link).

That said, there are most likely artists in my library who fail this test, either because I'm not aware of something or I neglected to take action.
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Age: 33
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#47 | Posted: 01/07/2019 05:37 | Post subject: Reply with quote
For more on Nazis in neo-folk or other fringe music, Dylan Miller at The Quietus has been doing some great work writing about that as well

http://thequietus.com/articles/25682-fa...etal-noise
http://thequietus.com/articles/25716-on...und-occult

But yeah that's all a pretty complicated topic there. For starters, my view of music is that it doesn't exactly have "emotional content". Like I see music get described in a way where it's like, there's a bucket, and the artist barfs up their delicious feelings into it and that's the content of the music, and if you're unskilled at drinking it you had an invalid response and that's your fault. But I like to think of it like making music is making the empty bucket, and you the listener get to see it and depending on what it reflects back at you and how you see that, you barf up your own feelings and so the emotional content is this collaboration between the artist and the listener but never like a direct transfer or anything, it doesn't exist independent of this relationship.

So because of this, it totally makes sense to me why it can be difficult to let go of an artist after discovering something terrible about them, because it's the listener's labor that went into building this relationship with the music, and it's hard to just throw that all away.

Fischman wrote:
I'm actually looking forward to reading all your words on each of these albums... but I'd like to wait until after my first listen with just my own ears.


Oh yeah I get that for sure, it is good to get a connection first. Hope you enjoy them!
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#48 | Posted: 01/07/2019 07:22 | Post subject: Reply with quote
So I was thinking about the earlier discussion about the potential generational difference I mentioned, and it got me thinking about that in relation to the Charles Mingus album. There's another quote from the book Myself When I Am Real about Let My Children Hear Music that seemed related to this

Quote:
Word was out that Ornette Coleman was writing a large-scale work he was calling a symphony. [Mingus], not Ornette, should be doing that. He had the training, the background, the sophistication, the long-standing desire. In formal terms, Coleman was deliberately primitive; his symphony was more like a suite. Mingus, by contrast, wanted to remake the symphony from inside, entwine thematic expositions and solo and group improvisations, as classical music had done even into Mozart's day. He wanted to rewire the symphony's theme-and-development structures and light them with jazz.


I feel like this spirit of competition in this quote is something that's sort of changed. And while I'd disagree with how uncharitable the author is being towards Skies of America, I do think this spirit of competition can be very positive and push people to greater heights. Like maybe this is just me being totally ignorant, but it doesn't feel like you see this sort of competition between artists as much outside of Rap. And I think it has to do with more of an increased sense of people being peers and supporting each other on their journeys. That's beautiful too, but has anyone here seen the Masaaki Yuasa anime Ping Pong? It's about high schoolers who play ping pong and it's a really excellent look at how competition can be about people reaching their greatest level of excellence together rather than about destroying your opponent. While I don't think the above quote suggests it was entirely in that sort of spirit, I do think that this competition may have helped push Let My Children Hear Music to the level of greatest excellence that it achieved.
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Tilly




Location: Forest Park
United States

#49 | Posted: 01/07/2019 11:14 | Post subject: Reply with quote
re: Syro write-up

Fucking amazing, dude! Insanely well done history of Aphex.

I love everything Aphex has ever done so this was a joy to read. Thanks, brother.

ps. this whole thread has been amazing. Probably my favorite BEA thread in years.
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Kool Keith Sweat
skronkist



Location: Tejas
United States

#50 | Posted: 01/07/2019 14:00 | Post subject: Reply with quote
That's an interesting take on competition. I feel like the trend in jazz musicians now, moreso than 50-70 years ago, is that musicians are reverent of others achieving what they haven't/can't and it's more a competition of self, pushing to express yourself as you intend while combating your own preconceptions of music and natural tendencies to produce more traditional music that doesn't actually represent you. If anyone has a chip on their shoulder, it's directed towards sociopolitical issues, like the lack of women being recognized in the avant garde, or establishments, like the classical community still struggling with appreciating improvised or jazz-based compositions as on par with traditional classical (e.g. Trillium or even Sorey). I don't think I've ever heard any modern jazz musician say or write anything along the lines, "fuck that guy, I can do it better, watch me." I think people recognized it only gets you so far as those people.
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