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baystateoftheart
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Age: 24
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#1 | Posted: 03/15/2019 02:39 | Post subject: EP Ideas Reply with quote
I posted this as a response in another thread, so I'm just going to leave it here (slightly edited) for consideration. What do you all think of these ideas?

baystateoftheart wrote:
As to the suggestion of BEA having an EP category similar to compilations, I think that's a great idea, but only if it is applied based on the clear and specific presentation/marketing of a release as an EP, and not based on its length.

I like the 5 track / 20 minute rule as a starting point for what's allowed on BEA, but I think there should be an addendum. If a shorter release is clearly and specifically presented/marketed as an EP or as an LP, AND is comprised of more than 50% newly-released recordings that do not appear on any studio LP, it should be permitted in the database. That would add richness to the BEA database without clogging it up with redundant releases.

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sethmadsen
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#2 | Posted: 03/15/2019 04:22 | Post subject: Reply with quote
I remember when I first joined the site I wanted to add some EP's and wish I could have because it was EP's I really liked from artists I really liked. Since then, I haven't really cared much. I think the argument back then is that this is an albums site. Not just a music site. And I'm ok with that. It has some limitations, but sometimes limitations are what make things great.
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#3 | Posted: 03/15/2019 04:35 | Post subject: Reply with quote
I think right now they've been wanting to stick with the current system until the redesign goes through, backend changes with a new release classification could involve a large amount of work with getting the classification to play nicely with all the other parts of the site.

but yeah once that's ready I think it will be good to be able to label things as EP's since there's releases that explicitly qualify themselces as EP's on the site and it would be good to separate them from the albums

one thing that could be helpful while proposing a rule though is to show some examples of what would be included and excluded with the rules. the 50% thing seems like it would have weird overlaps with compilations
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babyBlueSedan
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#4 | Posted: 03/15/2019 04:48 | Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm in favor of looser restrictions for EPs, if only because there are certain artists where their EPs are just as important in their discography as their albums. I get why we have the 5 track / 20 minute rule - it's completely objective and easy to look up - but it makes for some weird situations. Tierra Whack's 15 song, 15 minute album is eligible but a 4 song 19 minute album isn't? The rules baystate proposed are good, but I can see a potential issue where they're difficult to verify. If I'm doing data moderation on an album I've never heard of I'm not sure how I determine how many of the songs are new. But in general I'm definitely in favor of this.

I think one reason why we have the restrictions is to prevent singles from getting added, and I do agree we should not allow those to be added. Was the rule created because users were adding singles, or was it created to prevent that possibility? I'm just wondering if there would actually be much of a problem of inappropriate releases getting added if the rule was changed.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash



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#5 | Posted: 03/15/2019 05:07 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Tap wrote:
I think right now they've been wanting to stick with the current system until the redesign goes through, backend changes with a new release classification could involve a large amount of work with getting the classification to play nicely with all the other parts of the site.

but yeah once that's ready I think it will be good to be able to label things as EP's since there's releases that explicitly qualify themselces as EP's on the site and it would be good to separate them from the albums

one thing that could be helpful while proposing a rule though is to show some examples of what would be included and excluded with the rules. the 50% thing seems like it would have weird overlaps with compilations


Yeah I'm not saying this should happen right away or be a priority, just putting it out there.

The way I wrote it was to exclude several types of release to avoid redundancy in discographies. For instance, promo EPs that just preview an upcoming album, as well as collector's EPs that just put a few old tracks on vinyl.

Compilations on BEA have a majority of previously released material, so limiting EPs that don't meet the 5 / 20 threshold to those with more than 50% new material avoids potential overlaps. As for overlaps caused by adding an EP tag option to what's currently in the database, if you can find anything on BEA that was released and marketed as an EP and meets the BEA definition of a compilation, I'll eat my hat, or at least be very impressed.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash



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#6 | Posted: 03/15/2019 05:11 | Post subject: Reply with quote
babyBlueSedan wrote:
The rules baystate proposed are good, but I can see a potential issue where they're difficult to verify. If I'm doing data moderation on an album I've never heard of I'm not sure how I determine how many of the songs are new.


That's an interesting point, but I would argue it's not more difficult than the criteria that already exist regarding what makes something a compilation.
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#7 | Posted: 03/15/2019 05:29 | Post subject: Reply with quote
baystateoftheart wrote:
Compilations on BEA have a majority of previously released material, so limiting EPs that don't meet the 5 / 20 threshold to those with more than 50% new material avoids potential overlaps. As for overlaps caused by adding an EP tag option to what's currently in the database, if you can find anything on BEA that was released and marketed as an EP and meets the BEA definition of a compilation, I'll eat my hat, or at least be very impressed.


https://www.discogs.com/Cex-Role-Playa-...lease/6794 4/7 tracks are from his role model album https://www.discogs.com/Cex-Role-Model/master/110937
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash



Age: 24
Location: Massachusetts
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#8 | Posted: 03/15/2019 06:02 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Tap wrote:
https://www.discogs.com/Cex-Role-Playa-12-EP/release/6794 4/7 tracks are from his role model album https://www.discogs.com/Cex-Role-Model/master/110937


Close, but no cigar. The BEA compilation guidelines require "a vast majority of previously released tracks." 4/7 is not vast.
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#9 | Posted: 03/15/2019 06:21 | Post subject: Reply with quote
but see that's where it gets confusing then because there's a hard 50% thing in your proposal so it wouldn't qualify as an EP, but then it also wouldn't qualify as a compilation because it has too much new material, so it can't be added? I dunno I just think if we're gonna be talking about it lets get into the ones that would give us the most trouble, I think that can help make it clear what the rules should be (and if any accompanying changes to other rules are necessary).
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albummaster
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#10 | Posted: 03/15/2019 09:18 | Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi, thanks for an interesting thread. There's a few issues mentioned here, so just responding chronologically:

baystateoftheart wrote:
If a shorter release is clearly and specifically presented/marketed as an EP or as an LP, AND is comprised of more than 50% newly-released recordings that do not appear on any studio LP, it should be permitted in the database. That would add richness to the BEA database without clogging it up with redundant releases.

Agree that BEA has a few gaps in terms of 'missing' material but this is an album site and the missing material is missing because it does not appear on any albums. There are also many singles or 12" releases that don't qualify for BEA which would add 'richness' (completeness) to the database.

However, the danger of allowing EPs (and other shorter releases) is that it would dilute the core concept of BEA which is specifically about music albums (and is the raison d'etre of BEA and the main point of difference with other sites). If BEA lost that core focus on music albums, what would the site then become? (there are higher level strategic considerations that come into play when thinking about broadening the scope of the site)

babyBlueSedan wrote:

I think one reason why we have the restrictions is to prevent singles from getting added, and I do agree we should not allow those to be added. Was the rule created because users were adding singles, or was it created to prevent that possibility?

The restrictions are in place to keep this site focused on music albums.

baystateoftheart wrote:
The BEA compilation guidelines require "a vast majority of previously released tracks." 4/7 is not vast.

I think the compilation guidelines should be more specific and the word 'vast' should be removed to make this less subjective and easier to administer. However, this requires further debate/consideration to ensure this would not introduce any unforeseen issues.
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