EP Ideas - Suggestions - Forums : Best Ever Albums

baystateoftheart
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Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

Tap wrote:

but see that's where it gets confusing then because there's a hard 50% thing in your proposal so it wouldn't qualify as an EP, but then it also wouldn't qualify as a compilation because it has too much new material, so it can't be added? I dunno I just think if we're gonna be talking about it lets get into the ones that would give us the most trouble, I think that can help make it clear what the rules should be (and if any accompanying changes to other rules are necessary).

It can already be added to the website because it's long enough. That would not change under what I'm suggesting.
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if your suggestion means that this EP consisting mostly of previously released material should be added to this site as a non-compilation album then I think that is evidence of your suggestion needing some work

mickilennial
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with so many albums missing tracklists, having improper years, etc. I really think we should focus on making the album database better instead of adding extended plays outright.

baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

albummaster wrote:

Hi, thanks for an interesting thread. There's a few issues mentioned here, so just responding chronologically:

Agree that BEA has a few gaps in terms of 'missing' material but this is an album site and the missing material is missing because it does not appear on any albums. There are also many singles or 12" releases that don't qualify for BEA which would add 'richness' (completeness) to the database.

However, the danger of allowing EPs (and other shorter releases) is that it would dilute the core concept of BEA which is specifically about music albums (and is the raison d'etre of BEA and the main point of difference with other sites). If BEA lost that core focus on music albums, what would the site then become? (there are higher level strategic considerations that come into play when thinking about broadening the scope of the site)

babyBlueSedan wrote:

I think one reason why we have the restrictions is to prevent singles from getting added, and I do agree we should not allow those to be added. Was the rule created because users were adding singles, or was it created to prevent that possibility?

The restrictions are in place to keep this site focused on music albums.

I think the compilation guidelines should be more specific and the word 'vast' should be removed to make this less subjective and easier to administer. However, this requires further debate/consideration to ensure this would not introduce any unforeseen issues.

I absolutely agree that this should remain a site for albums, but BEA already defines album broadly enough to include compilations, mixtapes, DJ mixes, and other non-traditional formats, as well as many EPs. The division between EPs and albums is incredibly blurry now more than ever, and I think BEA's broad definition of album should include all EPs that are released as standalone, intentional creative works, not just some of them. The slippery slope to singles always comes up but I don't think that's a risk, considering no one is advocating that and the way I wrote this excludes singles.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

Tap wrote:

if your suggestion means that this EP consisting mostly of previously released material should be added to this site as a non-compilation album then I think that is evidence of your suggestion needing some work

I am not advocating for anyone adding that release. Under current BEA rules, it could be added to the database as a non-compilation album.

Clearly if the definition of compilation is up for revision (I did not know that when I posted), it would make sense to square that away before addressing issues surrounding EPs. A tag for EPs and an exemption for certain EPs to be added to the site are also two different issues, and I can see how it would be confusing to discuss them together.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

Gowi wrote:

with so many albums missing tracklists, having improper years, etc. I really think we should focus on making the album database better instead of adding extended plays outright.

That's a fair point.

Hearing everyone's feedback and reconsidering the factors at play, I think it makes sense to set aside the question of making more releases BEA-eligible. But it would be useful to have an EP label to apply to those that are already allowed on BEA.

Since according to AM the definition of a compilation needs to be revisited, while we're at it how about changing the yes/no compilation dropdown to a dropdown with three options: LP, EP, and compilation? The definition of an EP being simple: if it's released/marketed as one.
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Romanelli
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It's very simple right now.

If it's 20 minutes or more, it's allowed on BEA. Regardless of number of tracks.

If it's 5 tracks or more, it's allowed on BEA. Regardless of total running time.

If it's less than 20 minutes AND less than 5 tracks, it's not allowed on BEA.

If you think you might want to look into an album, you will discover pretty much within the first 2 minutes of checking it out that it either is or is not an EP, without the need for adding a dropdown. (Compilations are a yes or no option.)

The cutoff established by AM for EP's has been pretty fair and easy to follow. And, my opinion, the less additional gadgets added to the data mod process, the better. There are plenty of those to come with updates that are already in the works. EP's, to me, don't seem like something that should be a priority, given that we already have very clear guidelines for them.

The only change in this that I would be in favor of would be adding (EP) at the end of the album title. This would be easily visible and simple for whoever is doing the data moderating to verify.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

Romanelli wrote:

It's very simple right now.

If it's 20 minutes or more, it's allowed on BEA. Regardless of number of tracks.

If it's 5 tracks or more, it's allowed on BEA. Regardless of total running time.

If it's less than 20 minutes AND less than 5 tracks, it's not allowed on BEA.

If you think you might want to look into an album, you will discover pretty much within the first 2 minutes of checking it out that it either is or is not an EP, without the need for adding a dropdown. (Compilations are a yes or no option.)

The cutoff established by AM for EP's has been pretty fair and easy to follow. And, my opinion, the less additional gadgets added to the data mod process, the better. There are plenty of those to come with updates that are already in the works. EP's, to me, don't seem like something that should be a priority, given that we already have very clear guidelines for them.

The only change in this that I would be in favor of would be adding (EP) at the end of the album title. This would be easily visible and simple for whoever is doing the data moderating to verify.

Well no, you won't know if what you're looking at on BEA is an EP without crosschecking with another website. And adding the word EP to every title wouldn't allow for sortability in the future. I wasn't suggesting adding a dropdown, just modifying the existing one. "Yes" -> "Compilation." "No" -> "LP." And a new third option called "EP."
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albummaster
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Gowi wrote:

with so many albums missing tracklists, having improper years, etc. I really think we should focus on making the album database better instead of adding extended plays outright.

Agree, the focus should always be on improving the quality of the database. If release years (or any other details) are incorrect, they can be reported on individual album pages (this is a continual process). As an aside, only three albums out of over 140,000 are currently missing their track listings.

baystateoftheart wrote:

The division between EPs and albums is incredibly blurry now more than ever, and I think BEA's broad definition of album should include all EPs that are released as standalone, intentional creative works, not just some of them

Right now, as Romanelli has also mentioned. there is an extremely clear boundary of what determines an album. BEA was only ever intended as an album site. The fact that EPs are here at all is because BEA's cut-off of 20 minutes is the minimum cut-off for an album and some longer 'EPs' occasionally fall into this bracket. It is not currently an objective of BEA to include shorter EPs alongside their longer counterparts. To remain an album site, BEA has to have a cut-off somewhere and if we started allowing shorter releases, the site would quickly become flooded with 12" singles etc which also happen to have the same characteristics as most shorter EPs.

baystateoftheart wrote:

Well no, you won't know if what you're looking at on BEA is an EP without crosschecking with another website. And adding the word EP to every title wouldn't allow for sortability in the future. I wasn't suggesting adding a dropdown, just modifying the existing one. "Yes" -> "Compilation." "No" -> "LP." And a new third option called "EP.

I don't see the harm in adding an option to mark some shorter albums as EPs provided they are above BEA's existing threshold and adhere to your definition of being released/marketed as EPs. Unless I am missing something, I don't think this would affect the operation of the site or significantly increase data admin overhead. (Existing/new albums would default to 'LP' (or album) but any BEA-eligible release meeting the criteria of an EP could be flagged as such).

Romanelli wrote:

The only change in this that I would be in favor of would be adding (EP) at the end of the album title. This would be easily visible and simple for whoever is doing the data moderating to verify.

The word 'EP' should only appear in the title if it is shown on the artwork. The fact that a release could be flagged as an EP could be used to indicate this anyway (and could also be used for filtering and sorting etc).

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I mean we should probably address the fact that EP is an arbitrary promotional term, like you havw things like Autechre's EP7, a compilation CD that was released at the same time as the vinyl releases EP7.1 and EP7.2 (see also Aphex Twin - Come To Daddy for a similar scenario), the most significant indicator that something is an EP is from the title or promotion indicating it's an EP.

So I do think it makes sense to just have the standard we have here and leave it at that, because it's a close to meaningless term. But I do think it would help the albumcentric focus of this site to be able to distinguish things as EPs. Because there are EPs on the site now, and if we could call them EPs then we could separate them from the albums. I think you would need to put a lot of work into the rules around them though and factor in titles, category numbers, and other things so I think it'd be fair to wait on it since it's not like the chart is plagued by EPs.