Album of the day (#3104): Rubber Soul by The Beatles

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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash



Age: 28
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  • #21
  • Posted: 06/16/2019 16:38
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sethmadsen wrote:
I think another part of this is "social norms" - today this kind of behavior is atrocious (and rightfully so)... back then it really was common place. That doesn't excuse the behavior at all. But we are judging these people based on our social norms, not theirs. There's a nurture vs nature argument here. Are James Brown and John Lennon complete assholes in their own doing, or were there some ways they were brought up that affected their lyrics with women?


Domestic violence has declined a lot since the 60s, and that's great, but sometimes people think it was more socially acceptable then than it actually was. In 1962 the single "He Hit Me (And It Felt Like A Kiss)" was pulled before it could chart amid public outcry.

While it was undoubtedly a worse time to be a woman, there are more parallels to norms today than many know/acknowledge - abuse was not socially acceptable, but also was something a lot of people willfully ignored.
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



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  • #22
  • Posted: 06/16/2019 16:41
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baystateoftheart wrote:
sethmadsen wrote:
The internet is not ready for your maturity. Laughing

Well said.


Nothing says maturity like creating a straw man of a view that's different from yours, and calling those who hold the opposing view self-righteous douches. God forbid someone simply doesn't like a song they find disturbing in context.


You are absolutely right in that name calling isn't mature. That's not what I thought was mature about the post.

And I don't think the post called anyone out specifically, rather what logical decision can you make instead of an emotional one? To me that's a mature thing to do. And I think he was just saying that it is self-righteous behavior to act in that way, which I don't think is logically false, is it? It is also emotionally mature behavior to recognize faults and then understand the why behind it before jumping to conclusions immediately.

And I don't think it was arguing directly with you, so calling the argument a straw man argument would mean the post was making something up instead of directly addressing your issue, but instead the post was just offering a different point of view. I wouldn't call it a straw-man argument.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash



Age: 28
Location: Massachusetts
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  • #23
  • Posted: 06/16/2019 16:48
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sethmadsen wrote:
baystateoftheart wrote:
sethmadsen wrote:
The internet is not ready for your maturity. Laughing

Well said.


Nothing says maturity like creating a straw man of a view that's different from yours, and calling those who hold the opposing view self-righteous douches. God forbid someone simply doesn't like a song they find disturbing in context.


You are absolutely right in that name calling isn't mature. That's not what I thought was mature about the post.

And I don't think the post called anyone out specifically, rather what logical decision can you make instead of an emotional one? To me that's a mature thing to do. And I think he was just saying that it is self-righteous behavior to act in that way, which I don't think is logically false, is it? It is also emotionally mature behavior to recognize faults and then understand the why behind it before jumping to conclusions immediately.

And I don't think it was arguing directly with you, so calling the argument a straw man argument would mean the post was making something up instead of directly addressing your issue, but instead the post was just offering a different point of view. I wouldn't call it a straw-man argument.


What would be relevant to this thread about decrying "morally sanitizing your playlists" if it wasn't meant to criticize anyone in this thread for allegedly doing so? You're right, the post wasn't arguing directly, but TimeLion's m.o. is never to be direct about anything.
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



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  • #24
  • Posted: 06/16/2019 16:49
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baystateoftheart wrote:
Domestic violence has declined a lot since the 60s, and that's great, but sometimes people think it was more socially acceptable then than it actually was. In 1962 the single "He Hit Me (And It Felt Like A Kiss)" was pulled before it could chart amid public outcry.

While it was undoubtedly a worse time to be a woman, there are more parallels to norms today than many know/acknowledge - abuse was not socially acceptable, but also was something a lot of people willfully ignored.


That's probably true - I think it's hard to assess because there's a lot of over-generalizations like "the people of 1962" or this record got pulled, but not 50 others. I think if nothing else, it's hard to truly assess.

I guess the term "socially acceptable" has varying levels to it if people willfully ignore it as opposed to your ass is going to jail... Laughing
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad



Location: Ground Control
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  • #25
  • Posted: 06/16/2019 20:39
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baystateoftheart wrote:
sethmadsen wrote:
baystateoftheart wrote:
set hmadsen wrote:
The internet is not ready for your maturity. Laughing

Well said.


Nothing says maturity like creating a straw man of a view that's different from yours, and calling those who hold the opposing view self-righteous douches. God forbid someone simply doesn't like a song they find disturbing in context.


You are absolutely right in that name calling isn't mature. That's not what I thought was mature about the post.

And I don't think the post called anyone out specifically, rather what logical decision can you make instead of an emotional one? To me that's a mature thing to do. And I think he was just saying that it is self-righteous behavior to act in that way, which I don't think is logically false, is it? It is also emotionally mature behavior to recognize faults and then understand the why behind it before jumping to conclusions immediately.

And I don't think it was arguing directly with you, so calling the argument a straw man argument would mean the post was making something up instead of directly addressing your issue, but instead the post was just offering a different point of view. I wouldn't call it a straw-man argument.


What would be relevant to this thread about decrying "morally sanitizing your playlists" if it wasn't meant to criticize anyone in this thread for allegedly doing so? You're right, the post wasn't arguing directly, but TimeLion's m.o. is never to be direct about anything.


I didn't see this until now - I really am not looking to argue about this. I think your points are salient and mature too. And I'm also seeing how my laughing could sound like I'm laughing at your point - I'm just laughing at the juxtaposition on how social norms have changed, even if I agree with you that it was still seen as a negative thing at the time and interesting fact about that song. Was that a FCC type decision (I don't know if that even existed back then) or just some radio stations got together and agreed?

I don't know if TimeLion was criticizing anyone or even saying all those who think this way do this activity or not - it was a logical thought process (I thought) and not a specific attack. But maybe I'm wrong - if TimeLion was indeed equating anyone and everyone who disagree with the lyrical content of that song as douches and it was just a fancy way to do so, then yes I disagree with that view point. I didn't get that vibe, but I could be wrong. Anyway, if TimeLion cares about clarifying, I guess that's up to TimeLion. As for me, I wanted to just clarify that I didn't think about the post as something to attack others (I have yet to read something akin to whoever hates domestic abuse is dumb), rather to discuss different outcomes of ways to think about it in almost a CBT fashion or along the lines of pluralism, typically isn't a popular way to think on the interwebs, especially with a touchy subject like this, so I was just surprised it was handled that way, hence my comment.

To be clear - I perfectly respect and share the point of view the closing track is garbage (as previously stated) not only musically, but lyrically is super creepfest.
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Tha1ChiefRocka
Yeah, well hey, I'm really sorry.



Location: Kansas
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  • #26
  • Posted: 06/16/2019 20:52
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Quote:
11. In My Life
Holy shit... easily top 5 Beatles song. That opening guitar melody, the drum beat, but mostly the euphoria of nostalgia and love this conjures up in me. It hits me like a ton of bricks even on the 10,000th time I've heard the track. Then there's the beginning of some rad studio trickery where the piano solo sounds like a mix between a piano and a harpsichord and you get this baroque pop vibe from it... simple yet brilliant.


Thanks to the 5th Beatle, Sir George Martin. One of my top tracks as well.
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DommeDamian
Imperfect, sensitive Aspie with a melody addiction


Gender: Male
Age: 21
Location: where the flowers grow.
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  • #27
  • Posted: 06/18/2019 09:54
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baystateoftheart wrote:
Not sure how a song about violence against women written and sung by a domestic abuse perpetrator can fall into the joke song category.


I see that....although it's not meant as a "this is funny"-kind of joke.
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Daydreamer





  • #28
  • Posted: 06/18/2019 10:30
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I can't help but feel there's quite a bit of overreaction here considering RFYL, I've always viewed it as a goofy song, and it's only because Lennon is linked to domestic abuse and violence that the song is taken way more seriously than it should have been.
Look at Delilah by Tom Jones, no one is disgusted by that one, since it's obviously so much over the top that you can't really take it seriously. I've known RFYL since I was a kid and I've never thought the lyrics were serious. And also, musically it's not half as bad it's made out to be. It sure is a much better song than What Goes On.

As for the album itself, yes it's their first mature album and a much needed step towards their best work, but I've always thought that the difference in quality between Help! and Rubber Sould is much smaller than the difference between Rubber Soul and Revolver. Sure, some songs here are absolute top tier best ever songs, but it's still pretty uneven and the last few songs let the album down. Still, Lennon owns this album, this is where he hit his peak, with songs like Norwegian Woom, Nowhere Man, Girl and In My Life he truly was on another level at this point.
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DommeDamian
Imperfect, sensitive Aspie with a melody addiction


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  • #29
  • Posted: 06/18/2019 20:44
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Daydreamer wrote:
I can't help but feel there's quite a bit of overreaction here considering RFYL, I've always viewed it as a goofy song, and it's only because Lennon is linked to domestic abuse and violence that the song is taken way more seriously than it should have been.
Look at Delilah by Tom Jones, no one is disgusted by that one, since it's obviously so much over the top that you can't really take it seriously. I've known RFYL since I was a kid and I've never thought the lyrics were serious. And also, musically it's not half as bad it's made out to be. It sure is a much better song than What Goes On.

As for the album itself, yes it's their first mature album and a much needed step towards their best work, but I've always thought that the difference in quality between Help! and Rubber Sould is much smaller than the difference between Rubber Soul and Revolver. Sure, some songs here are absolute top tier best ever songs, but it's still pretty uneven and the last few songs let the album down. Still, Lennon owns this album, this is where he hit his peak, with songs like Norwegian Woom, Nowhere Man, Girl and In My Life he truly was on another level at this point.


Woord!
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CA Dreamin



Gender: Male
Location: LA
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  • #30
  • Posted: 06/18/2019 20:48
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This thread actually got interesting for a minute. I almost missed it.

TimeLion wrote:
People like to idealize the suffering artist as only hurting themselves, but that’s almost never the reality. At some point you have to decide if morally sanitizing your playlists really makes the world a better place, or if it just makes you a self-righteous douche...

Are those the only two possible outcomes?

I say it does neither.

If people choose to omit songs they find disturbing from their playlist, seems more instinctive than self-righteous. But it can be still be useful to examine disturbing songs. One can try to understand the artist's perspective, evaluate the artist's ability to express oneself, yada yada. Listeners can still appreciate a song but decide it isn't right for them, and omit it from their playlist without crossing into the territory of "self-righteous douche".

In regards to RFYL, there's not much to appreciate. The music and lyrics are lazily written and don't mesh well. The song sounds way too upbeat when its lyrics are about dominance and death threats, which can come off as creepy and disturbing as seth and BSATA have said. At best, it can be taken as a dark joke. But like I said, it wasn't a good joke even before I was aware Lennon was a real-life domestic abuser, which makes the song not really a joke at all, but a reflection of John's personal life, which brings me to DayDreamer's comment.

Daydreamer wrote:
I can't help but feel there's quite a bit of overreaction here considering RFYL, I've always viewed it as a goofy song, and it's only because Lennon is linked to domestic abuse and violence that the song is taken way more seriously than it should have been. I've known RFYL since I was a kid and I've never thought the lyrics were serious. And also, musically it's not half as bad it's made out to be. It sure is a much better song than What Goes On.

I don't know about this. I re-listened to the song and album last night. Sure, RFYL is better than What Goes On but that's because What Goes On is one the worst songs ever. But as for the seriousness of it, it conveys jealousy and domestic threats which reflect John's real-life personality and marriage/relationship with Cynthia at the time. RFYL's lyrics exaggerate his personality, and are softened by an upbeat tone, but it's impossible to deny a link there. The song is somewhat serious when taken into context.

As for me, I now see RFYL in a different light. I thought the song was bad beforehand, and I don't find it any worse now. But I do find it more interesting, for the fact that John was exposing his personal side/flaws. He was still in a pop mindset, but maybe RFYL was a small stepping stone to opening up more on later, better tracks. Again, doesn't prevent RFYL from being bad.

@seth, as I mentioned, I re-listened to the whole album for the first time in a while last night. Certainly not as a good as I remembered, and it's gonna take a plunge on my chart on the next update. I'll try to do a track-by-track review, but I may not be very favorable.
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