Top 10+ Music, Movies, and Visual Art of the Week (2022)

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AfterHours



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  • #681
  • Posted: 12/04/2021 21:28
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TiggaTrigga wrote:
What do you find so amazing about Sticky Fingers? It doesn't strike me as anything that special. Also, is the song Brown Sugar good in your opinion, and why? Best song on the album?


I'm not sure how quickly I'll get back to you or if it will be much in depth or not, because I have returned to intensively studying Leonardo's Last Supper and also -- just as intensively -- Michelangelo's paintings, and to a lesser degree, Guernica. I am mainly alternating between Leonardo and Michelangelo works while filling in some additional study of the Picasso in between, and this is consuming most of my attention besides my life, work, family/friends/personal relationships, upcoming holiday, etc. Last Supper + Michelangelo's Doni Tondo, Conversion of St Paul/Crucifixion of St Peter, Sistine Ceiling/Last Judgment, and then the additional study of Guernica, is all tolled, 1000+ pages worth of study of detailed analysis and as efficient a review of the most relevant connective art history as possible, plus the time consumed by looking over the works over and over again, comparing notes, and so on.

This is intended as an effort to hopefully build a written foundation of notes for future analysis that I would probably post on my "Greatest Paintings" list, and possibly a more finalized version of one or more of those works.

By this, I don't mean "Don't ask me about anything else right now". Feel free to. Just a warning that there might be a gap in reply or the replies might be shortened.

Re: Sticky Fingers ... I'll say a little for now, but mainly, I do have a question: have you given much listening, evaluation, thought, consideration to their works leading up to SF? Their genius is hard to miss in my opinion when compared to rock n' roll of their time or before, their considerable amalgamation of talent and their development from there, with their peak beginning with Between the Buttons and/or Beggar's Banquet, depending on one's view (Beggar's forward certainly has a more direct relation to SF, then Exile). Sticky Fingers is among their pinnacles and illustrates a maturation and peak in multiple genres/sub-genres that has rarely been approached without leaving the main touchstones of rock n' roll into more progressive/experimental/alternative/psychedelic (etc) territory.

If not done already, I highly recommend listening to their work for the following key elements, which will help one's formulation of what is also expressively formidable as a whole...

"The Rolling Stones were probably the most impressive set of talents to come together in Britain before the Soft Machine: decadent vocalist Mick Jagger (who distorted soul crooning and turned it into an animal instinct), rhythm guitarist Keith Richards (who took Chuck Berry's riffs into a new dimension of fractured harmony), multi-instrumentalist Brian Jones (who penned their baroque and psychedelic arrangements), and the phenomenal, funky rhythm section of bassist Bill Wyman and drummer Charlie Watts. Steeped in the blues, the Rolling Stones redefined the rock performer, the rock concert and the rock song. They turned on the degree of vulgarity and provocation to levels that made Chuck Berry look silly. Arguably the greatest rock and roll band of all times, the Rolling Stones revolutionized each of the classical instruments of rock music: the drums incorporated the lascivious tom-tom of tribal folk, the martial pace of military bands and the sophisticated swing of jazz; the guitar amplified the raw and ringing style of Chuck Berry; the bass invented a depraved sound, the singing turned the sensual crooning of soul music in an animal howl, half sleazy lust and half call to arms; and the arrangements of keyboards, flutes and exotic instruments completely misinterpreted the intentions of the cultures from which they were borrowed. The revolution carried out by the Rolling Stones was thorough and radical.

Indirectly, the Rolling Stones invented the fundamental axis of rock and roll: the sexy singer, sexual object and shaman, and the charismatic guitarist. For at least forty years that would remain the only constant in rock music (and one of the external features that set it apart from jazz, folk, classical music). In an era still crowded with vocal groups of pop music (Beach Boys, Beatles) inspired by those of the 1940s', the Stones represented a generational trauma. After them, not only rock music but western civilization itself will never be the same again."

--Piero Scaruffi
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TiggaTrigga





  • #682
  • Posted: 12/05/2021 02:35
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AfterHours wrote:
Re: Sticky Fingers ... I'll say a little for now, but mainly, I do have a question: have you given much listening, evaluation, thought, consideration to their works leading up to SF?



Well, I've only listened to Beggar's Banquet. Of course I've heard other songs from them during this period (Gimme Shelter, Jumpin Jack Flash).
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AfterHours



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Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

  • #683
  • Posted: 12/05/2021 08:20
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TiggaTrigga wrote:
Well, I've only listened to Beggar's Banquet. Of course I've heard other songs from them during this period (Gimme Shelter, Jumpin Jack Flash).


Well, that's an excellent start.

To at least answer your previous question: yes, I think Brown Sugar is one of their mini masterpieces (among many). Very hard to choose what my favorite track is off SF, but if forced to choose I'd probably go with it. However, on any given listen it could also be Wild Horses, Can You Hear Me Knocking?, Bitch, I Got the Blues, Sister Morphine or Moonlight Mile. With You Gotta Move not far behind, though a notch below those generally speaking.

I think Scaruffi sums it up pretty well, including Brown Sugar: "With this album the Stones found a post-blues format, intellectual yet spartan, vulgar yet elegant, rowdy yet impeccable, lewd yet austere..."

"It's one of the most explicit and provocative albums of all time, a continuous apology to dependency - from lascivious to self-destructive; a collection of libidinous chants and grim sabbaths to drugs. The animalesque assault of Brown Sugar, one of their best works and a masterpiece of rugged rock is the quintessence of their savage style."

"It's blues, labored blues, ghoulish and romantic, but it's not the blues of the plantations, it's the blues of psychedelic lights."

I would maybe sum that up or expound upon it by saying if you hear the album in the context of the the aftermath and fall out of 60s drugs and excess and death, you're probably on the right track. The songs are simultaneously ragged, gnarled, broken, defeated, violent but also austere, honed and impeccable and synergistic (expressing that clamoring for nobility in the face and aftermath of self-destruction, death). It is in their sound itself, obviously with Jagger, but also the "raw/dirty/vulgar/ragged" sound characteristics of their instrumentation, of Richards fractured harmony, of the unpolished way the saxes play, of the "end of the night/last man standing" glory of the piano and rhythm section; it has the quality of debauchery, a looseness of playing too long into the night, of the last legs of excess, but still maintains impeccable technical timing, expressive articulation and detail.

I do stand by the 8 I give it (or at least somewhere in the 7.5s, which I sometimes drop it to unofficially).
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Facetious



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  • #684
  • Posted: 12/05/2021 10:24
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AfterHours wrote:
I would maybe sum that up or expound upon it by saying if you hear the album in the context of the the aftermath and fall out of 60s drugs and excess and death, you're probably on the right track. The songs are simultaneously ragged, gnarled, broken, defeated, violent but also austere, honed and impeccable and synergistic (expressing that clamoring for nobility in the face and aftermath of self-destruction, death). It is in their sound itself, obviously with Jagger, but also the "raw/dirty/vulgar/ragged" sound characteristics of their instrumentation, of Richards fractured harmony, of the unpolished way the saxes play, of the "end of the night/last man standing" glory of the piano and rhythm section; it has the quality of debauchery, a looseness of playing too long into the night, of the last legs of excess, but still maintains impeccable technical timing, expressive articulation and detail.


How do you see Exile in this context then?
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AfterHours



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  • #685
  • Posted: 12/05/2021 19:30
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Facetious wrote:
How do you see Exile in this context then?


Their ultimate testament, though less "perfected" (noble, austere, etc), much looser, more abandon. In many ways it completes the gospel direction of Beggar's Banquet, merged by the emotional and thematic context of Sticky Fingers, but much more bacchanalian, luxuriant, excessive than either.

Beggar's Banquet is a masterpiece primarily because it articulates an extraordinary wrestling and ambiguity, a beckoning, between the salvage and forgiveness of religion and devilish transgression, the lure of each. And it is remarkably assured and articulate and even poetic in this regard, perfectly honed. So, for instance, Sympathy for the Devil, the vocals are both devilish trickery, conniving, animalistic at peaks, but also gospel tinged, innocent, youthful exuberance, ecstatic. The piano and rhythm section too, follows this plan, excitable, tribal, gospel, revelry, as well as the lead guitar lashes out in notes that are held in both ecstatic praise but also a "twisting of the knife". The entire album expresses this ambiguity and beckoning between religion and transgression, between innocence and criminal. No Expectations begins with slyly ecstatic guitar before Jagger's ever-ambiguous voice which is immersed in a sly ecstasy and wonder (that could also be conniving, manipulative, seductive). Etc.

Exile accomplishes this but in excess, in wild abandon, in ramshackle, decrepit blues and loneliness, in ragged glory, in luxuriant bacchanals, much of it outright gospel or gospel tinged or a multitude of instruments and voices assuming the "choral/gospel" quality of such. Also, with Exile the rhythm section reaches its full culmination. The variegation of percussion, drum performances, is perhaps the greatest, most extraordinary in rock history (again a culmination of the process that begins especially with the constant percussive fluctuation and articulation of Beggar's).
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  • #686
  • Posted: 12/06/2021 19:57
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Not sure if you've ever thought highly of Daft Punk but Scaruffi used to have their album Discovery as a 7/10. It's a 6/10 now. You may actually find it to be good, though it can be fairly repetitive, as a lot of dance music is. Though I believe you have Orbital II and U.F. Orb ranked fairly high
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AfterHours



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Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

  • #687
  • Posted: 12/06/2021 22:18
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TiggaTrigga wrote:
Not sure if you've ever thought highly of Daft Punk but Scaruffi used to have their album Discovery as a 7/10. It's a 6/10 now. You may actually find it to be good, though it can be fairly repetitive, as a lot of dance music is. Though I believe you have Orbital II and U.F. Orb ranked fairly high


Thank you - I've listened to Discovery and 1 or 2 others of theirs, but it was years ago. Not sure what I would rate them.
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  • #688
  • Posted: 12/06/2021 22:31
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For my criteria page, go here: http://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/vi...hp?t=15503

To visit my Main lists, go here:
Greatest Classical Music Works: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...hp?t=15098
Greatest Albums (Rock & Jazz): https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...hp?t=15276
Greatest Films: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...hp?t=15558
Greatest Paintings: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...hp?t=15560
Greatest Works of Art: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...hp?t=16117

Bold = Newly added
Bold + Italics = Was already listed but recently upgraded/downgraded

Top 10+ Music, Movies, and Visual Art of the Week(s): 12-6-21 - 12-31-2021
Sistine Chapel: Ceiling and The Last Judgment - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1512; 1541)
St. Peter's Basilica - Michelangelo Buonarroti, Donato Bramante, Carlo Maderno and Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1626) [Architecture] ... I am mid studying/evaluating this work a bit more extensively than I ever have before. Although a high rating is already assured, a major factor in determining a more solidified and specific number is determining to what degree its multitude of sculptures (from a variety of artists) should be included as part of the main, overall rating assigned to "St. Peter's Basilica", which to begin with, is already challenge enough separating the various main designer's contributions with other designer's attempts to the purely architectural side of the project (which took place over many years and left behind the failures or incompletions of other designers that attempted the project). The basic rule, it seems, would lie mainly in how inclusive these (sculptures) were intended by and in coordination among each (architects and sculpturists) as part of the architectural plan (particularly from the artist(s) themselves), or if they were simply added later to be celebrated in the space (such as Michelangelo's Pieta, which actually loses some of its original intent and meaning by being removed from its original location and placed in St. Peter's, and was re-placed after his death without his consent, so should be considered separately and with said original intent/meaning intact instead of in the "incorrect" context of St. Peter's; conversely Bernini simultaneously made coordinated contributions of both sculpture and architecture to St. Peters so should perhaps be considered part of the whole instead of separately and individually rated?). Anyway, this in itself is all its own study/evaluation that is quite complicated but also quite fascinating. Regardless, the Basilica is a truly amazing masterpiece and it is beyond belief that Michelangelo was yet its greatest design contributor. This, after the already overwhelming realizations one has (especially if one journeys through his unprecedented career) of his astonishing accomplishments in sculpture and painting (not to mention a great poet) before mastering architecture during the latter half of his life, culminating at the end with his design of St. Peter's Basilica (and which, in short, was the main plan followed, and then later added to by future architects). His work on St. Peter's is made even more impressive by the fact that he courageously scrapped the work that was being done on it by his predecessor and basically started anew, despite many years (that Michelangelo considered wasted on a lost cause) that had been devoted to that predecessor's plan and met by something close to revolt by those that had been so devoted to it. His ability to handle this and manage or lead dozens of people under him is far under-reported in the many biographic attempts to paint him as (only) a loner and recluse (when he was clearly a far more varied individual and able to be a much more forceful personality than that).
The Sagrestia Nuova: Medici Chapel - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1555) [Sculpture and Architecture]
The Doors - The Doors (1966)
Good - Morphine (1992)
Are You Experienced? - Jimi Hendrix (1967)
Strange Days - The Doors (1967)
Pauline Chapel: The Conversion of Saul and The Crucifixion of St. Peter - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1545; 1550)
Europa - Lars Von Trier (1991)
Holy Motors - Leos Carax (2012)
Exile in Guyville - Liz Phair (1993)
David - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1504) [Sculpture]
Natural Born Killers - Oliver Stone (1994)
Uncut Gems - Josh Safdie and Benny Safdie (2019)
Beggar's Banquet - Rolling Stones (1968)
Conspiracy Theory - Richard Donner (1997)
Marriage Story - Noel Baumbach (2019)
Five Leaves Left - Nick Drake (1969)
Electric Ladyland - Jimi Hendrix (1968)
77 - Talking Heads (1977)
Laurentian Library - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1571) [Architecture]
Doni Tondo - Michelangelo Buonarroti (circa 1506)
Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd (1975)
Da Capo - Love (1966)
Pieta - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1499) [Sculpture]
Cure For Pain - Morphine (1993)
6 - Supersilent (2003)
Remain in Light - Talking Heads (1980)
There's A Riot Goin' On - Sly and the Family Stone (1971)
Tomb of Pope Julius II - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1545)
Stand! - Sly and the Family Stone (1969)
The Fountain of Youth - Lucas Cranach (1546)
Rain, Steam and Speed - The Great Western Railway - J.M.W. Turner (1844)

Top 10+ Albums/Movies for the Week(s) - Rated 2.8/10 to 6.7/10
Unbreakable - M. Night Shyamalan (2000)
Axis: Bold as Love - Jimi Hendrix (1967)
Moneyball - Bennett Miller (2011)
Speak Now - Taylor Swift (2010)
The Martian - Ridley Scott (2015)
Come On Over - Shania Twain (1997)
New Girl - Elizabeth Meriwether (2011-2018): Seasons 4-7
Out of the Blue - Debbie Gibson (1987)

>>>>>Note to self: look into artist David Brian Smith. Interview here: https://www.studiointernational.com/ind...-interview ... ... This painting (Great Expectations - Wow), among some of his others, are intriguing and might be worthy of 6s - 6.5s or so: https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/...ion-previe w-saatchi-gallery-london-uk-29-nov-2016-7525798ac

(Note: Ratings updates in RED are not based on a revisit of the work DURING the listed week(s), but more a result of tweaks made in an overall sense, such as: a general change in the computation of the ratings scale itself, and/or comparisons to genre and/or the artist's career or alike careers. Such factors can have a sort of "domino effect" on the ratings in general, or that of a particular artist or type of artist, or that of a particular genre, etc)

FAMILIAR ROCK/JAZZ ALBUMS - RE-RATED:
Out of the Blue - Debbie Gibson (1987) 4.5 to 3.9/10

FAMILIAR FILMS - RE-RATED:
Natural Born Killers - Oliver Stone (1994) 7.4/10 to 7.8/10
Uncut Gems - Josh Safdie and Benny Safdie (2019) 7.1/10 or 7.2/10 to 7.3/10
Conspiracy Theory - Richard Donner (1997) Not Rated to 7.1/10 ... Though it has flaws, this film has been unfairly maligned to a much more marked degree than it deserves. I don't think some critics quite realize that much of its preposterous final Act or so is intentionally (or at least partially intentional) led off the rails a bit in keeping the viewer in the same awkward and ambiguous balance and suspension of disbelief/belief as the main characters and themes of the film. Due primarily to Gibson, the film has a comic spirit that is both light and increasingly dark simultaneously, precariously, that allows the film to progress into absurdity that would otherwise be too stupid to take, but instead manage to work on a comic level even when preposterous, or a crackpot level even when serious and when it should have no right to be. It does fall into some Hollywood cliches, especially closer to the end, but these are still kind of endearing or forgivable in the context of the film's themes because they share a certain audaciousness that they usually wouldn't in the context and absurd trajectory the film takes and in its ambiguity between crackpot ridiculousness and suspension of belief. Gibson and Roberts are both exceptional (especially Gibson) in very difficult roles that walk a very fine line (especially the last third) between the ridiculous and barely believable, but remain committed despite this.
Unbreakable - M. Night Shyamalan (2000) Not Rated to 6.6/10

NEWLY ASSIMILATED FILMS - RATED:
Marriage Story - Noel Baumbach (2019) 7.0/10
Moneyball - Bennett Miller (2011) 5.7/10
The Martian - Ridley Scott (2015) 5.6/10
New Girl - Elizabeth Meriwether (2011-2018): FULL SERIES 4.7/10
New Girl - Elizabeth Meriwether (2011-2018): Season 4 3.5/10
New Girl - Elizabeth Meriwether (2011-2018): Season 5 3.3/10
New Girl - Elizabeth Meriwether (2011-2018): Season 6 3.4/10
New Girl - Elizabeth Meriwether (2011-2018): Season 7 3.0/10

FAMILIAR PAINTINGS/VISUAL ART - RE-RATED:
The Sagrestia Nuova: Medici Chapel - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1555) [Sculpture and Architecture] Not Rated to 7.8/10
Pauline Chapel: The Conversion of Saul and The Crucifixion of St. Peter - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1545; 1550) Not Rated to 7.4/10 (Note: Rating still very open to change as I continue my re-study and analysis of Michelangelo's works ... Also, I had rated Crucifixion of St. Peter individually before, but not The Conversion of Saul and never the two of them as a combined work, which I feel there is enough evidence to support now, even though I am not 100% conclusive about it so is still open to change)
David - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1504) [Sculpture] Not Rated to 7.3/10
Rain, Steam and Speed - The Great Western Railway - J.M.W. Turner (1844) 7.4/10 to 7.3/10
Laurentian Library - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1571) [Architecture] Not Rated to 7.0/10 ... Fwiw, the entrance vestibule is truly amazing and rightly considered one of his greatest architectural achievements. The overall rating would be higher if Michelangelo would have applied more innovation to the Reading Room (which is the bulk of the overall space) and/or (the more fair view, because he composed the Reading Room with the following conception in mind) would have been able to implement his next revolutionary idea thereafter, the planned and intended addition of the Rare Book Room and its own accompanying vestibule. By this, I don't mean the Reading Room is poorly executed -- not at all -- infact, it is just that it was part of an overall plan that was not quite brought to fruition that would have made it a transitional, orderly and functional space of contemplation ("the contemplative life"), between "bookending", revolutionary masterpieces of "the active life", as opposed to the culmination space it inadvertently became with the triangular Rare Book Room and its vestibule never produced. Simply put: the entrance vestibule is the far more compelling and revolutionary space (developing from his remarkable ideas from The Sagrestia Nuova and probably influencing artists as far removed from the Renaissance as Mark Rothko and Frank Lloyd Wright) and is where most of the highly creative and singularly expressive content lies.

TOP 50 WORKS OF ART OF THE YEAR (2021)
Sistine Chapel (Ceiling & The Last Judgment) - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1512; 1541)
The Last Supper - Leonardo Da Vinci (1497)
Have One On Me - Joanna Newsom (2010)
Trout Mask Replica - Captain Beefheart (1969)
The Garden of Earthly Delights - Hieronymus Bosch (circa 1495-1505)
Irrlicht - Klaus Schulze (1972)
The Night Watch - Rembrandt van Rijn (1642)
St. Peter's Basilica - Michelangelo Buonarroti, Donato Bramante, Carlo Maderno and Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1626)
Guernica - Pablo Picasso (1937)
Escalator Over The Hill - Carla Bley (1971)
Even the Sounds Shine - Myra Melford (1994)
Original Sin - Pandora's Box (1989)
Dreamtime Return - Steve Roach (1988)
Rock Bottom - Robert Wyatt (1974)
Metamorphose de Narcisse - Salvador Dali (1937)
Touch of Evil - Orson Welles (1958)
Symphony No. 9 in C Major "The Great" - Franz Schubert (1826)
Neu! - Neu! (1971)
Spiderland - Slint (1991)
Improvisie - Paul Bley (1971)
Afternoon of a Georgia Faun - Marion Brown (1970)
The Downward Spiral - Nine Inch Nails (1994)
Nostalghia - Andrei Tarkovsky (1983)
Symphony No. 9 in D Major - Gustav Mahler (1910)
Stalker - Andrei Tarkovsky (1979)
Spirit of Eden - Talk Talk (1988)
Europe After The Rain II - Max Ernst (1942)
The Kiss - Gustav Klimt (1908)
Blue - Joni Mitchell (1971)
Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824)
The Rite of Spring - Igor Stravinsky (1913)
Symphony No. 3 in E-flat Major "Eroica" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1804)
Let the Evil of His Own Lips Cover Him - Lingua Ignota (2017)
America - John Fahey (1971)
Lorca - Tim Buckley (1969)
Down Colorful Hill - Red House Painters (1992)
Blonde On Blonde - Bob Dylan (1966)
Pulp Fiction - Quentin Tarantino (1994)
St. Matthew Cycle: The Calling of St. Matthew; The Inspiration of St. Matthew; The Martyrdom of St. Matthew - Michelangelo Caravaggio (1602)
Starsailor - Tim Buckley (1970)
Happy Sad - Tim Buckley (1968)
Da Capo - Love (1966)
Loveless - My Bloody Valentine (1991)
Symphony No. 2 in D Major - Johannes Brahms (1877)
Piano Sonata No. 21 in B-flat Major - Franz Schubert (1828)
Chinatown - Roman Polanski (1974)
The Conversation - Francis Ford Coppola (1974)
The Doors - The Doors (1966)
Blow Out - Brian De Palma (1981)
Strange Days - The Doors (1967)
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Last edited by AfterHours on 01/01/2022 21:57; edited 47 times in total
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TiggaTrigga





  • #689
  • Posted: 12/09/2021 01:11
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Thoughts on Are You Experienced? And what's its best song?


Also...I've been listening to the Doors' debut and I'm wondering if you think the songs "Twentieth Century Fox", "Alabama Song" and "I Looked At You" are deep or emotionally significant. I mean, I like them, but they don't seem like anything special to me. Disagree?
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  • #690
  • Posted: 12/09/2021 22:38
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TiggaTrigga wrote:
Thoughts on Are You Experienced? And what's its best song?


Also...I've been listening to the Doors' debut and I'm wondering if you think the songs "Twentieth Century Fox", "Alabama Song" and "I Looked At You" are deep or emotionally significant. I mean, I like them, but they don't seem like anything special to me. Disagree?


Are You Exp: Third Stone from the Sun; after that, practically all of them, though Foxy Lady may be the most influential.

The Doors: It is all significant. Almost impossible to be rated so high with any serious gaps in consistency (I go back and forth between 9.1 and 9.2 but either way). Or if there are gaps for such a work, they are far overwhelmed by the qualitative positives of the rest. In The Doors case, its significance is a virtual constant, emotionally extraordinary throughout. Like any album/work, it has its higher peaks (Light My Fire, The End) but all of it is worthy. If you don't know why (yet), count yourself among the vast majority that have missed it or are only catching some of it. This probably has a bit to do with the album entering so much into popular culture (for which it wasn't really intended) and became "standardized" by being grouped among other popular music of the period, and then taken for granted thereafter, not really being observed anew despite the artist's singular expressive idiom (now largely missed by most accounts). That's all a bit of a generality (and probably sounds "elitist") but that is at least what seems to be true that I've personally seen or engaged with over the last 16 years (on internet and in regular life conversations about it) since I personally started really 'getting' the album approx 2005 (whereas, before that, I had missed the main significance of it, despite thinking it was a "classic, excellent album" for years prior).
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