Top 10+ Music, Movies, and Visual Art of the Week (2023)

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theredkrayola





  • #1101
  • Posted: 01/28/2023 04:14
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Your description of the Stone Roses album seems accurate to me. It's undoubtedly a great album, though critics across the pond do tend to overrate it somewhat (I'm sure you'd agree). A similar description might suffice for Skylarking (at least the first half of it, before it gets depressing), though I think White Music is XTC's masterpiece, not Skylarking.

I'm a bit confused as to how The River could be a guilty pleasure for you, considering you view it as a masterpiece. If it is indeed a masterpiece, why is it a guilty pleasure whereas, say, Trout Mask Replica isn't?

You are correct that the emotional impact of Loveless is far greater than any Primal Scream. And even though I prefer Primal Scream on occasion, the mild enjoyment I sometimes get from it has never matched the overwhelming awe I've at times felt listening to Loveless - it's never even came close, which, as you say, is the difference between a 6 and a 9.

Concerning the Beatles being "worthless", I suppose I was exaggerating. They are worthless in the grand scheme of things, but they're better than Justin Bieber or One Direction or whoever. I still think Scaruffi may overrate them though. They've done nothing to earn two 7's; none of their albums are even close to Younger Than Yesterday, Surrealistic Pillow, the second HP Lovecraft album, Odyssey and Oracle, or many other albums from the era he gives 7/10 to.

It's also intriguing to me that you say you (somewhat) like 5/10's. It seems your scale may be slightly different than Scaruffi's - he often writes positive things about 6/10's (the album as a whole, even if there's no standout tracks), but he virtually never does this for a 5 - he either maligns the whole album or praises a couple of songs but says the album as a whole is garbage.

The question still remains of whether one can rate an album as a masterpiece without actually enjoying it. Say I listen to Double Nickels every day for the next year. At the end of the year, say my opinion doesn't change - I'm still impressed by it but don't particularly like listening to it. It would seem nonsensical to not give the album a high score, to rank it below Primal Scream, etc. when after constant repeated listening I am 100% aware that it is objectively better than any Primal Scream album. Just because I personally don't like it, I shouldn't be expected to give it a rating that I know is inaccurate. Which is why I think the listener has to try to rate things objectively, otherwise subjectivity will creep in and lead to nonsensical ratings that reflect a person's brain chemistry and not the quality of the art
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Facetious



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  • #1102
  • Posted: 01/28/2023 13:29
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theredkrayola wrote:
"Pure objectivity" meaning originality, creativity, emotional depth, etc. Double Nickels has all of those (particularly originality and creativity), whereas Primal Scream's debut does not - it sounds like the Byrds and is rather emotionally shallow. Nonetheless, Primal Scream gives me a warm feeling of euphoria - it conjures visions of summer days, blue skies, green forests - whereas the Minutemen hurt my brain and give me a slight headache.


In what sense is Primal Scream's debut emotionally shallow if it's evocative to the point where it readily gives you a feeling of euphoria and conjures up such vivid images, even if you claim it's just because you listened to it in spring? It seems to me that the album is doing exactly what it's supposed to either way. How is "emotional depth" located in a work of art in a way that is inseparable from one's emotional response to it?

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This is why I think it's important to rate music objectively - if one rates music based on their subjective opinion, the Beatles may well end up topping the list (in addition to hating the Beatles subjectively I also think they're objectively worthless, but I assume people who do like the Beatles like them for much the same reasons I like Primal Scream).


Why would you assume that the basis of the legacy of the most critically acclaimed rock band of all time is just subjective opinions, especially when most of the same people seem to like (or rate objectively high) other "Scaruffi-approved" artists such as the Stones, Dylan, Velvet Underground, etc.
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theredkrayola





  • #1103
  • Posted: 01/28/2023 16:16
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Primal Scream is emotionally shallow because euphoria (which was probably a hyperbolic description on my part to begin with) is a shallow emotion. It does not compete with the overwhelming emotional power and intensity delivered by, say, Pharaoh Sanders - Karma. As AfterHours points out, many 6/10's can deliver "euphoria". But only a masterpiece can create a feeling of overwhelming awe, majesty, chaos, etc.

The Beatles' legacy surely must be subjective because there is almost nothing objectively good about The Beatles. Or perhaps one could say that their fans are rating them objectively but using the wrong criteria; i.e; "The Beatles have more catchy melodies than anyone else, therefore they must be #1"
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AfterHours



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  • #1104
  • Posted: 01/28/2023 19:24
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theredkrayola wrote:
Primal Scream is emotionally shallow because euphoria (which was probably a hyperbolic description on my part to begin with) is a shallow emotion. It does not compete with the overwhelming emotional power and intensity delivered by, say, Pharaoh Sanders - Karma. As AfterHours points out, many 6/10's can deliver "euphoria". But only a masterpiece can create a feeling of overwhelming awe, majesty, chaos, etc.


For the record, this is pretty close but not quite what I meant. The point about a masterpiece delivering much more power (or I would add "profundity") is true.

But I would add or clarify that any emotional content can be developed or brought to a very very high point of expression that is worthy of a masterpiece (including euphoria). I just meant that lots of 6/10s conjure euphoria and themes that are capable of descriptions such as what you described that Primal Scream was doing for you. And my suggestion by saying that was that this was probably just any old 6/10 or so (I wasn't trying to be very technical about it, I just meant -- basically -- that "simple but successfully evocative emotional/thematic content of a consistent, effective, medium order" was completely normal for a 6/10 to be churning out (now, if it's much more than that, maybe you should rate it higher, but you seem to be going back and forth on the "degree of euphoria" in your "maybe I was being hyperbolic" comments, so maybe it just needed to be compared to others). And, partially by inference/partially by direct suggestion, I was pointing out that there is probably just a lot more that Double Nickels has in store for you. I did not mean that it was going to top Primal Scream specifically in regards to "euphoria". I just meant that its qualities and characteristics, if "assimilated emotionally, conceptually, creatively" (getting a good grasp on those while listening) will provide a much more powerful, profound, significant experience in its own way than the "euphoria" of Primal Scream.

But the main thing I am wanting to clarify here is the idea that "euphoria" is automatically a shallow emotion. Perhaps in the hands of Primal Scream's 6/10 it is, but there are plenty of near masterpieces (8.3/10+) or all-time masterpieces (8.8/10s or above) that deliver euphoria at an incredible expressive power/depth, whether it be Beethoven's 5th, Vivaldi's Four Seasons, or MBV's Loveless (perhaps the more ideal and applicable example among these, in relation to Primal Scream). The difference is in the power or depth of it, and usually in the upper ratings, the work is expressing far more than a single emotional type, and those that it is expressing tend to take on a "miraculous" or "spiritual" connotation due to the inimitable creativity, unique-ness they're being expressed with, the intensity or profundity/depth of emotion, and the awe that results. They could be said to be closer and closer to a "religious experience" by which I don't mean any particular religious experience, just the sort of "overwhelmed, stunned awe or fascination or amazement" one might associate with such a thing. And also (along with this) there is very much a consistent "epiphany" occurring throughout (as part of that, causing that "stunned, overwhelmed, awe"). Because the profundity tends to be very high (and the art has a connotation that is quite rare, that is quite unique to that artist, that can't be repeated, that delivers its emotions/concepts in a very singular way...), in the upper ratings one tends to have "epiphanies" as one is observing/grasping its emotional, conceptual, creative content (epiphany in this sense meaning: "a usually sudden manifestation or perception of the essential nature or meaning of something"). These will be much much milder and of a much less significant order lower in the ratings at 6/10 because the art is far more derivative, less inventive, less powerful, etc. These points of "awe or amazement" and "epiphany" that goes along with this (the epiphany or epiphanies lead to, produce, the awe/amazement) are the common denominators all the way up and down the scale, with of course much lower (weaker) versions of them in the lower ratings than the higher ratings. Ex: much weaker level of "awe/amazement" being (among many possible examples in between the top and the middle of the scale) "casually entertained" ... much weaker "epiphany" being "A Hard Days Night successfully conveys an inspired happiness or youthful glow about young love, albeit very superficial (never conveys a sense that it is being emoted from any real personal conviction -- or hardly that -- beyond the most limited or fleeting or insignificant and derivative tropes about the subject)" vs "Astral Weeks conveys all of the poetry, sadness, longing, depth of feeling, yearning, "the long goodbye", heartbreak, pain, ecstasy, joy, sorrow, the feeling one gets in the gut, a miraculous and experiential sense of it all (in the depths and the "lifetime of experience" and emotional weight of the vocal performance, all the deft and detailed color and evocative poetry of the instrumentation), brought through its hopes and losses and the emotional progression of youthful and adult love, delivered with the utmost conviction and engagement ... through the nearly free form streams of consciousness of the songs, marked by the overwhelmed emotions, impulses and reactions of the vocals (as if the protagonist is actually living the experiences as he is singing through them), from the burgeoning hopes of its beginnings to the stunned and sudden death of its loss" (or what-have-you, etc, etc, etc)...

Later on, I'll probably reply to a bit more and RK's previous reply, but for now I am short on time and I just wanted to clarify that...

(Note that I also have yet to respond to your last contentions about Bosch's Garden/Michelangelo's Sistine, which I was hesitating on, because I had a lot I could possibly say, but I am not sure if I want to go down that road at the moment ... time permitting ... So maybe...)
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AfterHours



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  • #1105
  • Posted: 01/29/2023 00:24
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theredkrayola wrote:

I'm a bit confused as to how The River could be a guilty pleasure for you, considering you view it as a masterpiece. If it is indeed a masterpiece, why is it a guilty pleasure whereas, say, Trout Mask Replica isn't?


I was really just throwing some possibilities out there. But a more serious look at the question and a precise or more thoughtful answer would depend on what you mean by "guilty pleasure". Tons of albums, films, etc, could be partially or wholly called that. The River, not necessarily because I think it is a great example but because it can be hard to take Springsteen's persona completely seriously and even though quite firmly Heartland Rock, also toes a pretty close line to pop chart territory (though doing so with a sensational band, and great compositions, and the unmistakable, relentless conviction of Springsteen, so I don't mean it is of the same quality as most chart hits). TMR, which (among many other things) is constantly expressing a tension between "is it art" or "is it not?" ... "Is it meaningful?" Or "is it nonsense?" ... And proceeds to erect an extraordinary depth/profundity from this. But, being equally measurable as "nonsense" as it is "profound", one could certainly say on one hand that it's a completely ridiculous album and worthy of such a tag, and is easily thought of as a "musical joke" or even an "accident" in the vein of the Shaggs, especially by those not yet all that familiar with it.

theredkrayola wrote:

It's also intriguing to me that you say you (somewhat) like 5/10's. It seems your scale may be slightly different than Scaruffi's - he often writes positive things about 6/10's (the album as a whole, even if there's no standout tracks), but he virtually never does this for a 5 - he either maligns the whole album or praises a couple of songs but says the album as a whole is garbage.


Maybe, maybe not on the slight difference of scales.

He tends to be harsher to artists that have just pissed him off for whatever reason by their actions and/or the hype. But, for instance, with artists like Bob Dylan or Tim Buckley, who he respects even through their failures, he doesn't say much negative about their lower rated works or if he does he tends to keep it pretty chill.

Particularly if they're overrated or way over hyped he is much more likely to go out of his way to express criticisms even for 6s, 6.5s, 7s (Beatles, Radiohead, Bowie...), presumably in an attempt to press back against too much unwarranted hype, whereas with an artist no one notices or that isn't over hyped to no end he will be more positive or just matter of fact about it without going out of his way. I don't think this means the "hyped 7s" (that he is critical about) are any worse than the 7s of artists he isn't so critical about. I just think he probably feels the need to express that those 7s that have been hyped as much as "Beethoven's 9th Symphony, the second coming" probably deserve a reality check "no this isn't actually a 10/10, here's why".

I expect it can be the same way with lower ratings though if he were asked the answer might depend a lot on how the question was worded. On one hand all 5s are very poor efforts (towards the aim of truly great or profound, creative, art). But if it's just something like "do you think Hard Days Night is melodically sound" and "cheerful" and "casually entertaining if youre not trying to get any more than that out of music in the moment" then there might be a yes to that (even if followed by "...but..."). All I mainly mean is that even though quite poor relative to 7.5s, 8s, 9s and so on, the 5s have positive qualities that can be acknowledged. They're usually solid at something or a couple somethings.
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Last edited by AfterHours on 01/30/2023 19:18; edited 1 time in total
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homelessking





  • #1106
  • Posted: 01/29/2023 03:18
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Tom Verlaine just died. RIP

Some guy remixed Piper by combining the mono and stereo version, so you get the details of the mono and a more up to date stereo panning of the instruments http://www.profstoned.com/2022/07/the-p...-dawn.html You really should check it out
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AfterHours



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  • #1107
  • Posted: 01/29/2023 06:26
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homelessking wrote:
Tom Verlaine just died. RIP

Some guy remixed Piper by combining the mono and stereo version, so you get the details of the mono and a more up to date stereo panning of the instruments http://www.profstoned.com/2022/07/the-p...-dawn.html You really should check it out


RIP to Verlaine, such an incredible, unique guitarist and Television was one of the singular Art Punk/Post Punk acts. Really nothing quite like them.

Thanks HK, I'll check that version of Piper out
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AfterHours



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  • #1108
  • Posted: 01/29/2023 19:22
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theredkrayola wrote:

The question still remains of whether one can rate an album as a masterpiece without actually enjoying it. Say I listen to Double Nickels every day for the next year. At the end of the year, say my opinion doesn't change - I'm still impressed by it but don't particularly like listening to it. It would seem nonsensical to not give the album a high score, to rank it below Primal Scream, etc. when after constant repeated listening I am 100% aware that it is objectively better than any Primal Scream album. Just because I personally don't like it, I shouldn't be expected to give it a rating that I know is inaccurate. Which is why I think the listener has to try to rate things objectively, otherwise subjectivity will creep in and lead to nonsensical ratings that reflect a person's brain chemistry and not the quality of the art


I've already answered this (earlier in the conversation) but if you're still asking, the answer is mostly "no". Yes, you can get an idea that something is maybe or probably or has potential to be a masterpiece before one has reached a point of really him or her self thoroughly observing, going through the work and getting personally immersed in its content. There can be a point in this, when one has made a cursory observation and cursory effort through it, a sort of "surface acclimation" with the work (so to speak) up to that point, where the work appears to have (at least a surface manifestation of) the characteristics of a masterpiece emotionally, conceptually, creatively, but one is prone to mistakes if he/she does it this way only or uses it as more than just a guide of "potentially great works" to start with (not a ratings/rankings end in itself). There are several amazing albums, films, paintings (etc) one would likely underrate, overrate, miss or even out-right ignore, if he were to only stick to this method.

One can not know (beyond the stage of "estimating" or "intuition") if a work provides the epiphanic value (consistency or degree) specific and personally measurable to a masterpiece without actually going through it and grasping well its emotional, conceptual, creative content in real-time so that it in turn reveals such values (and thus the resulting level of fascination, amazement, awe that one also finds, specific to the greatest works). My contention, through lots and lots of experience with the various arts I rate/rank and all levels of the qualitative scale, is that each echelon, regardless of the difference in content from work to work, has a "measurable" quantity of epiphanic value (can be personally experienced by rate and extent, a palpable "consistency" and "degree", as one goes through the work) that comes about as a direct result (whether immediately or with enough practice with said work) of observing its expressed emotional engagement, expressed conceptual engagement, and creativity. This is the true verification of a "masterpiece" and without which you are simply estimating or intuiting or whatever, but don't really know yourself yet.

It is pretty ridiculous to rate an album a "masterpiece" that you don't even like. By doing so, in my opinion, you would be grossly underestimating, de-valuing what it actually means and takes for a work to attain that level of impact, profundity, awe (or alike descriptions) and only basing it on (at best) some abstract idea that this work "should be so because...". Again, there is nothing wrong with doing so as a starting point, as a potentiality, as an estimate, as a possible prediction and noting as such... (I have done so myself when I start building a list, noting the likeliest candidates to explore further...). But rating it in an "official" or final sense is jumping the gun, imo. You should probably either leave it off any official listing, rating or ranking until you assimilate it further, or make note that it's an estimate if you include it. A masterpiece is not just an abstract idea, a disassociated exercise of obvious check marks, only dependent upon surface level characteristics, or "because it's really off the wall and chaotic" (or any superficial reasonings one might have). Sure, some are more obvious than others (and easier to assimilate than others), but first off, there are plenty of albums, films, paintings, classical works, jazz albums across the arts that are masterpieces for reasons more aligned to beauty or composition, or much more subtle reasons, and so on that have nothing to do with "chaos" or alike extremes (the sort of extremes that are usually easier to spot, and perhaps one could assume are "emotional enough" or "chaotic enough" for a "masterpiece" so call it such without exploring it much further or enough to really experience it's merits for oneself); besides, that is just one type of masterpiece and there are reasons, for those, such as Parable of Arable Land or any of the free jazz masterpieces that are more nuanced and singular to those works that are at least as fundamental and important to the reasons that make them masterpieces -- not just because they're really chaotic and ferocious and terrifying -- but also what makes them so unique among the countless other works that are also really chaotic and ferocious and terrifying, etc. There have been countless "20 minute works of chaos" since Sister Ray but one has to learn, observe, what are the special expressive characteristics that make Sister Ray so incredible and special more so than all those others, many of which are technically louder, more explosive, more chaotic (Note: it's not just because Sister Ray came earlier, and so one can check it off as "better"). This sort of thing requires a much more nuanced perspective (to see the differences, what is special about a work in relation to all the others with apparently similar surface characteristics). Secondly, there are many, many albums that are wilder, more chaotic and some just as diverse, as Double Nickels, that would appear (in the stage of "estimating" or "intuition") to be just as much as a (potential) "masterpiece" as Double Nickels if that were all or mostly the sort of thing one was using to determine such (before really experiencing it's merits, before liking it...). So in order to even begin to understand why it's a masterpiece, one has to find what makes Double Nickels special in the first place (more than all those other punk albums that are -- on the surface at least -- just as intense, wild, diverse) and doing that requires enough personal experience with the work to actually observe, notice and grasp this (may be a few listens, may be several...). And if it's making your head hurt and you don't even like it, I think its safe to say this hasn't happened yet Smile
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Last edited by AfterHours on 01/30/2023 19:12; edited 1 time in total
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  • #1109
  • Posted: 01/30/2023 18:42
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EXPLANATION: WHAT IS THIS LOG??? Go here: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...094#571094

For my criteria page, go here: http://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/vi...hp?t=15503

To visit my Main lists, go here:
Greatest Classical Music Works: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...hp?t=15098
Greatest Albums (Rock & Jazz): https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...hp?t=15276
Greatest Films: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...hp?t=15558
Greatest Paintings: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...hp?t=15560
Greatest Works of Art: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...hp?t=16117

Bold = Newly added
Bold + Italics = Was already listed but recently upgraded/downgraded

Top 10+ Music, Movies, and Visual Art of the Week(s): 1-30-2023 - 2-5-2023
Down Colorful Hill - Red House Painters (1992)
The Days of Wine & Roses - Dream Syndicate (1982)
Memento - Christopher Nolan (2000)
Good - Morphine (1992)
The River - Bruce Springsteen (1980)
Lullaby Land - Vampire Rodents (1993)
Uncle Meat - Frank Zappa (1968)
Black Rain - Shohei Imamura (1988)
Unsane - Unsane (1991)
Woman in the Dunes - Hiroshi Teshigahara (1964)
John Wick - Chad Stahelski (2014)

Top 10+ Albums/Movies/Visual Art for the Week(s) - Rated 2.8/10 to 6.7/10
The Last of the Mohicans - Michael Mann (1992)

FAMILIAR ROCK/JAZZ ALBUMS - RE-RATED:
Lullaby Land - Vampire Rodents (1993) Not Rated to 8.2/10
Uncle Meat - Frank Zappa (1968) Not Rated to 8.1/10
Unsane - Unsane (1991) Not Rated to 7.5/10

FAMILIAR FILMS - RE-RATED:
Memento - Christopher Nolan (2000) 7.9/10 to 8.0/10
Bullet in the Head - John Woo (1990) Not Rated to 7.9/10
The Color of Pomegranates - Sergei Parajanov (1969) Not Rated to 7.7/10
The Killer - John Woo (1989) 7.3/10 to 7.4/10
Hard Boiled - John Woo (1992) 7.3/10 to 7.4/10
Black Rain - Shohei Imamura (1988) 7.3/10 to 7.4/10
Brawl in Cell Block 99 - S. Craig Zahler (2017) 7.0/10 to 7.3/10
Woman in the Dunes - Hiroshi Teshigahara (1964) 7.4/10 to 7.3/10
The Last of the Mohicans - Michael Mann (1992) Not Rated to 5.7/10

NEWLY WATCHED FILMS - RATED:
John Wick - Chad Stahelski (2014) 6.9/10

TOP 50 WORKS OF ART OF THE YEAR (2023)
Nostalghia - Andrei Tarkovsky (1983)
Stalker - Andrei Tarkovsky (1979)
Persona - Ingmar Bergman (1966)
Blow-Up - Michelangelo Antonioni (1966)
Werckmeister Harmonies - Bela Tarr (2000)
The Conversation - Francis Ford Coppola (1974)
Alien - Ridley Scott (1979)
Astral Weeks - Van Morrison (1968)
Violin Concertos Nos. 1-4, "The Four Seasons" - Antonio Vivaldi (1723)
In the Aeroplane Over the Sea - Neutral Milk Hotel (1998)
Nashville - Robert Altman (1975)
Repeater - Fugazi (1990)
Fire of Love - Gun Club (1981)
Three Colors: Red - Krzysztof Kieslowski (1994)
The Big Heat - Fritz Lang (1953)
Medici Chapel: The Sagrestia Nuova - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1555) [Sculpture and Architecture]
David - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1504) [Sculpture]
The Band - The Band (1969)
The Game - David Fincher (1997)
Point Blank - John Boorman (1967)
Leon: The Professional - Luc Besson (1994)
The Rules of the Game - Jean Renoir (1939)
Yerself is Steam - Mercury Rev (1991)
Geek the Girl - Lisa Germano (1994)
Images and Words - Dream Theater (1992)
Zen Arcade - Husker DU (1984)
Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables - Dead Kennedy's (1980)
The Godfather - Francis Ford Coppola (1972)
Spiderland - Slint (1991)
Dolmen Music - Meredith Monk (1981)
Laurentian Library - Michelangelo Buonarroti (Begun 1525, completed posthumously, 1571; Tribune of Elci rotunda added by Pasquale Poccianti in 1841) [Architecture]
Dummy - Portishead (1994)
Frigid Stars - Codeine (1990)
The Lion and the Cobra - Sinead O'Connor (1987)
Fallingwater - Frank Lloyd Wright (1939) [Architecture]
The Lobster - Yorgos Lanthimos (2015)
The Power of the Dog - Jane Campion (2021)
Moses - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1515) [Sculpture]
Spleen & Ideal - Dead Can Dance (1985)
So Tonight That I Might See - Mazzy Star (1993)
Ugetsu - Kenji Mizoguchi (1953)
Andrei Rublev - Andrei Tarkovsky (1966)
Jeanne Dielman, 23, quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles - Chantal Akerman (1975)
Seven - David Fincher (1995)
Tuvalu - Veit Helmer (1999)
Children of Men - Alfonso Cauron (2006)
Ghostbusters - Ivan Reitman (1984)
Thelma and Louise - Ridley Scott (1991)
Timecrimes - Nacho Vigalondo (2007)
Who Framed Roger Rabbit - Robert Zemeckis (1988)
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Last edited by AfterHours on 03/12/2023 16:40; edited 10 times in total
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DommeDamian
Imperfect, sensitive Aspie with a melody addiction


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  • #1110
  • Posted: 01/30/2023 23:20
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Aside from Twin Infinitives, one of the only other Scaruffi favorites that I genuinely hate is The Days of Wine And Roses by Dream Syndicate, which I saw you also ranked in your top 50. What makes this awful album a piece of art or good or a choice to second chance?

PS: this year (2023) I am on a listening journey going through all of Scaruffi's 8/10s that I haven't heard yet, and the discographies also includes 7.5s and 7s, I'm taken them into account of hearing too. I HAVE to have heard and rated all the records before the end of the year. But I'm already down the records released in the 1960s and finished the 1970s today (although they are only a 5th of the records that are about to come). I think there is about 400-450 records in total.
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