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Facetious

Gender: Male
Age: 24
Location: Somewhere you've never been

Would have to disagree on Janet Jackson's albums being superior to Thriller. Thriller has too many classics.
Which tracks on the Janet albums stand out to you by the way?

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

Facetious wrote:

Would have to disagree on Janet Jackson's albums being superior to Thriller. Thriller has too many classics.
Which tracks on the Janet albums stand out to you by the way?

Its only a 0.1 point difference and could go either way.
But is it even possible to have more classics than Rhythm Nation?

I guess it could depend on one's definition of "classic" to which I assume you meant "famous hit songs" if we're comparing to Thriller and the like?

I dont listen often to any of these any more, so it could easily change if I checked out the 2 Janets and Thriller again -- all it takes is some shift here or there with only 0.1 between them. With its "New Jack Swing", Rhythm Nation approaches Public Enemy (at times) in terms of ferocity and sometimes almost approaches echoes The Rolling Stones' syncopation circa Sympathy for the Devil; Jigsaw Puzzle; Salt of the Earth and perhaps some of the visceral bacchanals of Exile

>>>>EDIT ... EXCURSION RE ROLLING STONES: key words are "sometimes", "almost", "approaches" and "echoes" ... In all rock history the Stones are probably unmatched in this regard while still maintaining an stable/unstable structure and momentum -- on the brink of teetering from its anchor but never quite -- but still at the rhythmic foundation of the "rock n' roll" song always at their core ... There are others that took gospel/rock/blues/jazz rhythm/syncopation beyond this such as Beefheart but tended to only do so in a freeer and more experimental formats, where rock n roll is further and further lost ... The Stones are the peak example and perhaps the limit while still strongly and wholly maintaining this identity. In retrospect, Public Enemy's hip hop rhythm & syncopation is a better more direct comparison while still quite elevated, more awe inspiring, from RN's contribution/development.

At RN peaks, it can convey a sort of delirious anarchy of its "dance till you drop" MO. Its main point of mediocrity is Janet's vocals, which are more or less serviceable throughout and probably only truly compelling when she is conveying a strong, independent (almost angry/threatening) woman that's had enough. When she is someone else on this album she tends to lack a strong enough individual and palpable sense of character and/or real sense of soul. Of course Jones' production work on Thriller is superb in its own right, and MJs vocals are probably better on avg than Janets on RN, so despite having one of the worst songs of all time (the "classic" with McCartney), it might still have enough (Ive almost placed it 6.8 in the past).

Probably the best stand out song on RN is the title track and I think I recall another stand out on the 2nd side with Black Cat. Will revisit... The interludes also contribute more than is the norm, adding to the concept/theme.
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Last edited by AfterHours on 03/24/2020 20:50; edited 4 times in total

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

Edit: just finished revisiting Rhythm Nation and will be downgrading it (to probably 5.5 range), though this didnt change the points mentioned above. Just didnt feel its strengths were as strong or consistent as I remembered them being (too much mediocrity or filler in between its highlights). So yes, I would agree with you that Thriller is superior.
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Facetious

Gender: Male
Age: 24
Location: Somewhere you've never been

AfterHours wrote:

Its only a 0.1 point difference and could go either way.
But is it even possible to have more classics than Rhythm Nation?

I guess it could depend on one's definition of "classic" to which I assume you meant "famous hit songs" if we're comparing to Thriller and the like?

I dont listen often to any of these any more, so it could easily change if I checked out the 2 Janets and Thriller again -- all it takes is some shift here or there with only 0.1 between them. With its "New Jack Swing", Rhythm Nation approaches Public Enemy (at times) in terms of ferocity and sometimes almost approaches echoes The Rolling Stones' syncopation circa Sympathy for the Devil; Jigsaw Puzzle; Salt of the Earth and perhaps some of the visceral bacchanals of Exile

>>>>EDIT ... EXCURSION RE ROLLING STONES: key words are "sometimes", "almost", "approaches" and "echoes" ... In all rock history the Stones are probably unmatched in this regard while still maintaining an stable/unstable structure and momentum -- on the brink of teetering from its anchor but never quite -- but still at the rhythmic foundation of the "rock n' roll" song always at their core ... There are others that took gospel/rock/blues/jazz rhythm/syncopation beyond this such as Beefheart but tended to only do so in a freeer and more experimental formats, where rock n roll is further and further lost ... The Stones are the peak example and perhaps the limit while still strongly and wholly maintaining this identity. In retrospect, Public Enemy's hip hop rhythm & syncopation is a better more direct comparison while still quite elevated, more awe inspiring, from RN's contribution/development.

At RN peaks, it can convey a sort of delirious anarchy of its "dance till you drop" MO. Its main point of mediocrity is Janet's vocals, which are more or less serviceable throughout and probably only truly compelling when she is conveying a strong, independent (almost angry/threatening) woman that's had enough. When she is someone else on this album she tends to lack a strong enough individual and palpable sense of character and/or real sense of soul. Of course Jones' production work on Thriller is superb in its own right, and MJs vocals are probably better on avg than Janets on RN, so despite having one of the worst songs of all time (the "classic" with McCartney), it might still have enough (Ive almost placed it 6.8 in the past).

Probably the best stand out song on RN is the title track and I think I recall another stand out on the 2nd side with Black Cat. Will revisit... The interludes also contribute more than is the norm, adding to the concept/theme.

I see the Public Enemy comparison, but apart from the excellent title track and a few others like Miss You Much, Alright, Escapade, and maybe Black Cat and State of the World, I don't see the album reaching those heights much. It's a solid 6 for me overall. Control (6.5 for me) benefits from being far tighter but doesn't maintain the same momentum as the first three tracks imo.
Thriller, on the other hand, starts with a bang with that opener and from Beat It to PYT has zero misfires. It's just far more consistent for me.

Facetious

Gender: Male
Age: 24
Location: Somewhere you've never been

AfterHours wrote:

Edit: just finished revisiting Rhythm Nation and will be downgrading it (to probably 5.5 range), though this didnt change the points mentioned above. Just didnt feel its strengths were as strong or consistent as I remembered them being (too much mediocrity or filler in between its highlights). So yes, I would agree with you that Thriller is superior.

There's definitely a shorter 6.5 or low 7 album/EP hidden in it. I think I would keep the songs I mentioned above, not sure about the interludes (haven't revisited the album). What about you?

DelBocaVista

Fun!

I would remove Modern Lovers because I think it's an album of demos

Nevermind - Nirvana
- Jagged Little Pill

What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
- A Love Supreme Smile

Exile On Main Street - The Rolling Stones
- I would remove Jefferson Airplane (too epic and too "communal")

Born To Run - Bruce Springsteen
- Bat Out Of Hell

It Takes A Nation of Millions To Hold Us Back - Public Enemy
- Rage Against the Machine (same reason as MC5, but more rap)

Horses - Patti Smith
- White Light/White Heat (garage-based "ritualisic" music, just not depraved in Patti's case)

Electric Ladyland - Jimi Hendrix
- Early Soft Machine
- Peter Green (since you have Miles)
- Traffic

Strokes - Is This It
- Richard Hell
- Talking Heads: 77
- TV on the Radio

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

Facetious wrote:

There's definitely a shorter 6.5 or low 7 album/EP hidden in it. I think I would keep the songs I mentioned above, not sure about the interludes (haven't revisited the album). What about you?

Maybe but I would strongly doubt it at this point. For me, it is almost impossible for a "definite 6.5-7" to be among a 5.5/10. Just very unlikely that there would be such a massive discrepancy between parts on that mediocre of an album. I will probably revisit RN once more to ensure it's rating one way or the other so I'm not closing the door on it just yet. For now I would say there is not enough positive-rating material to warrant 6.5 or 7 no matter the editing of tracks or combinations of tracks. I think you're own ratings are (sometimes? often?) a bit less strict in these regards -- probably (very rough estimate) about 1.0 different than mine (my 5s are often 6s to you; my 6s are often 7s to you; my 7s are often 8s to you...maybe they even out above that?).

I went away from yesterday's RN listen thinking (estimates) "5.3/10 overall" and that the first 1/2 was perhaps 5.4 and the 2nd 1/2 perhaps 4.8. But I might change my mind if I revisit it again. Title track and Black Cat seemed much better than the rest. But sometimes (at first) I do have a tough time jumping from a lot of the stuff I usually listen to into an almost entirely pop/mainstream universe like RN and listening to it without bias and in an actual state of present observation and assimilation to what is creative about it, its emotional/conceptual conveyance and so on. This happened to me for the first song or two of Thriller (which I revisited after), but then I cleared this away and started observing "it" and its merits and the album's qualities came into being more and more so to speak. So I decided while listening to Thriller that I should probably go back in on Rhythm Nation to ensure yesterday's listen was "legit" or not, and to also double check that RN might not have some of the same merits that make Thriller special. So, going to give it one more chance before dropping it from 6.5 to 5.5...

As a note re: Rolling Stones comparison. To clarify, I am not referring to any substantial similarity in the sound worlds of each or even the main purpose in their music. I was only referring to the syncopation + the dance or gospel rhythmic function. As something of a side note: The Stones are in the running for most influential band/artists in rock history and while their main influence was obviously towards punk and hard rock and blues rock, they were very much woven into the foundational fabric of "dirtier" pop/r & b/glam rock also that drew on Jagger's persona and the ambiguous (dirty/demonic vs spiritual/salvation) character of their songs and instrumentation to form their own amalgamation (such as Prince or Guns N Roses and lots of acts in between those poles) ...and I was alluding to this side-influence with Rhythm Nation but wasn't (intentionally) characterizing them as having any substantial close correlation. It was meant as a side note, that's all, that I was just noting while amidst revisiting the Rolling Stones' best albums and then listening to RN again.
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AfterHours

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Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

DelBocaVista wrote:

Fun!

I would remove Modern Lovers because I think it's an album of demos

Nevermind - Nirvana
- Jagged Little Pill

What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
- A Love Supreme Smile

Exile On Main Street - The Rolling Stones
- I would remove Jefferson Airplane (too epic and too "communal")

Born To Run - Bruce Springsteen
- Bat Out Of Hell

It Takes A Nation of Millions To Hold Us Back - Public Enemy
- Rage Against the Machine (same reason as MC5, but more rap)

Horses - Patti Smith
- White Light/White Heat (garage-based "ritualisic" music, just not depraved in Patti's case)

Electric Ladyland - Jimi Hendrix
- Early Soft Machine
- Peter Green (since you have Miles)
- Traffic

Strokes - Is This It
- Richard Hell
- Talking Heads: 77
- TV on the Radio

Several interesting ideas! Making me think! (a mistake? Laughing

)

Nirvana / Jagged Little Pill is an interesting one but the main point of Jagged Little Pill is how voice and arrangement constantly fluctuates or modulates to dramatize the unwinding storytelling (the voice constantly changing in the act of the moment playing out in real-time). This is a descendant from Blonde On Blonde (story telling ... the dense and vibrant, often swirling, multi-color of arrangements facilitating this in juxtaposed concept and poetic gradation) the main difference being B on B is a more profound and articulate and deftly surreal, metaphysical example (as a whole, and it's sound world despite massively influential, also completely unique in all of rock history, even Dylan's own) while JLP is a much more "impulsive" example, crossed with proto punk and emotional instability of Patti Smith's Horses. Although I can see a correlation in the visceral emotional outcries of this and Nevermind, I am not sure if I would agree they share a prominent correlation -- at least enough to be added. Up for debate though. Maybe there is something to JLP being a further development of Nevermind in some ways. It certainly shares a bit of its impulse and punk spirit. Hmmmmm...

What's Going On vs A Love Supreme. I almost think I had this one on this list back at listology? Am I right? I don't know if I would agree with it now, but there is certainly a correlation between how each progresses through it's own spiritual progression. Btw, What's Going On seems like a very difficult one to come up with correlations for, though maybe I just need to revisit a lot more R & B/Soul soon and I'll start coming up with them easier than it seems at the moment. Or maybe there's just too few influences that are 6.8+. It's a very hit and miss genre IMO that doesn't often lend well to artistic individuality/creativity of the highest order (practically all its best ideas seem fundamentally predated by Jazz masterpieces, often years or decades in advance).

More later...
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AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

Facetious wrote:

There's definitely a shorter 6.5 or low 7 album/EP hidden in it. I think I would keep the songs I mentioned above, not sure about the interludes (haven't revisited the album). What about you?

Update: Rhythm Nation seemed like 6/10 this time so either will make its way back to 6.5 next time or settle in around the 6s. Now pretty snugly in between my last 2 assessments. In other words, I have no idea what Im talking about Laughing

...because it also now seemed better than Control when I revisited that, just to further confuse things! Think

This might just mean I need to lock into a groove on R and B/Dance/Soul music by going back through many of its landmarks and adjacent greats in a relatively short/consistent time period and refresh my grip on the genre. A little shaky right now. Too much psych in my ears I think Smile

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AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

DelBocaVista wrote:

Fun!

I would remove Modern Lovers because I think it's an album of demos

Exile On Main Street - The Rolling Stones
- I would remove Jefferson Airplane (too epic and too "communal")

Born To Run - Bruce Springsteen
- Bat Out Of Hell

It Takes A Nation of Millions To Hold Us Back - Public Enemy
- Rage Against the Machine (same reason as MC5, but more rap)

Horses - Patti Smith
- White Light/White Heat (garage-based "ritualisic" music, just not depraved in Patti's case)

Electric Ladyland - Jimi Hendrix
- Early Soft Machine
- Peter Green (since you have Miles)
- Traffic

Strokes - Is This It
- Richard Hell
- Talking Heads: 77
- TV on the Radio

Re Modern Lovers ... If its an official release/album its an official release/album. Isnt Down Colorful Hill basically demos anyway? ...Besides, this punk-garage/VU revival stuff should pretty much sound like that anyway Cool

Re: Exile/Volunteers ... Not a bad point at all but theyre (probably) similar enough in my opinion. The drugs/excess of each (Volunteers more lost and haunted by hallucinations during its peak tracks; Exile more drunken/heroin/orgiastic revelry), the instrumentation, technical and expressive similarities including genre confluences. It does seem like each band may have been watching/influencing the other during this general time period (sort of akin to The Beatles and Beach Boys) with JA a bit more experimental at their peak but never far from their roots rock/rock n roll/country/americana base which, aside from Slick, was not disimilar to the Stones a couple years later circa Sticky Fingers/Exile.

Re: Born To Run/Bat Out of Hell ... Good one. Probably agree.

Re: Public Enemy/Rage ... Cant believe I missed this, which is a better idea than me alluding to a possible MC5 inclusion (more direct than MC5). MC5 is probably too distant to really be added but Rage might be the perfect middle point.

Re: Horses/WLWH ... Doubt Ill put these together even though your point is well made. Ultimately the expressive results are too disrelated I think.

Re: Electric Ladyland ... Traffic is a good possibility and one I forgot. Even though I threw Miles on the TBD list (which is far from a guarantee for inclusion) he is probably a long shot. Green and Soft Machine probably in the same boat but will be revisited with Hendrix in mind.

Re: Is This It ... All 3 probably have a shot. Hell and TV more so than Talking Heads though by that I dont mean TH is completely out of the picture

Again, thank you for all of these including your PMs. Feel free to drop some more as they come to you!
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