Genre list discussion

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baystateoftheart
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Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts
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  • #11
  • Posted: 05/25/2020 18:17
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albummaster wrote:

Brass & Military + Military
Broadway & Vocalists / Musical Theatre and Entertainment / Stage & Screen/ Soundtracks
Children's
Christian & Gospel + Religious
Easy Listening
Holiday
International / World Music / Regional Music (there's a wider debate to be continued)
Sound Effects & Nature
Spoken Word


Easy listening fits under pop. And what doesn't fits under jazz or new age.

There is little to no religious music that can't fit under any of the other top-level genres. It is more of a description than a genre.
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babyBlueSedan
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  • #12
  • Posted: 05/26/2020 02:48
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albummaster wrote:
You then posted some exclusions, a lot of which I agree with, but there are some that I don't.

Brass & Military + Military
Broadway & Vocalists / Musical Theatre and Entertainment / Stage & Screen/ Soundtracks
Children's
Christian & Gospel + Religious
Easy Listening
Holiday
International / World Music / Regional Music (there's a wider debate to be continued)
Sound Effects & Nature
Spoken Word

There's still debate to be had about a few of the above e.g. how to deal with soundtracks and theatrical releases (there's an argument to say they are a genre in their own right, especially in the case of movie scores or Broadway musicals, but even the Pulp Fiction soundtrack has audio clips from the movie overlaying some of the tracks (the Big Mac scene etc). Also, the 'world'/'international' category is the biggest thing that's unclear. Personally, I'd rather individual regions weren't listed as categories for reasons outlined above (this should be about musical style and not geographical origin).

The other problem is getting rid of too many categories that BEA requires a 'miscellaneous' option. Under all circumstances, I think this should be avoided. Categories like holiday are very useful around Christmas time. BEA has very few children's albums and brass and military etc, but do we have to forego these categories? Even 'religious music' and 'spoken word' do have a place for some albums, even though the numbers would be very small, as they don't fit into the other categories (even at a stretch) and classing them as miscellaneous indicates missing categories that could easily be added.


Yeah, I was probably a bit overzealous excluding things. I was thinking that it would be more useful to focus on the albums that represent a large percentage of our database rather than creating specific categories for albums that aren't very visible on our charts. I think that's probably the wrong way of looking at things though. I agree Miscellaneous isn't ideal, just a way to limit the number of specific genres we have to make. If we're OK with creating genres for specialized things but also ensuring the more commonly rated albums get sufficiently detailed categories I don't see a reason to exclude most of these. Spoken Word sounds pretty useful for comedy albums and any speeches (and of course, actual spoken word albums). If we can group all the soundtrack categories together that would address all the albums with music pulled from another source - the title of the album usually tells you what it's from. I'm not 100% convinced on Holiday or Religious; I'm sure they'd be useful they just feel more like descriptors than genres to me. Not opposed to them, don't really feel strongly on them at all actually.

I agree with what Baystate said on the World/Regional topic. If other sites provide some regional categories - Reggae is fairly common - it seems like we could be a bit more detailed given our diverse user base and tastes. And I wager there are more albums of regional African music in the database than there are of, say, Sounds and Effects. If we do end up with a catchall I think Regional is the right name to give it because it at least implies that other releases from around the world that fit under rock, pop, etc should be tagged as such.
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Spyglass
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  • #13
  • Posted: 05/26/2020 17:28
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I think one of the biggest updates involving helping sort out genres is to put a cap on the amount of genres that albums are allowed to be tagged as. I'd say anymore than 3 is a bit extreme.

I'm composing a current version of the top 100 with tags, using babybluesedan's "pared down list" but still keeping experimental (with avant-garde absorbed into it) and ambient.

1. Radiohead - OK Computer - Rock
2. Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon - Rock
3. The Beatles - Abbey Road - Pop / Rock
4. The Beatles - Revolver - Pop / Rock
5. Radiohead - Kid A - Rock / Electronic / Experimental
6. The Beatles - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band - Pop / Rock
7. Radiohead - In Rainbows - Rock
8. Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here - Rock
9. David Bowie - The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars - Pop / Rock
10. The Velvet Underground - The Velvet Underground & Nico - Rock / Experimental
11. Arcade Fire - Funeral - Rock / Pop (assuming the (chamber pop) genre is valid)
12. Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin IV - Rock
13. The Beach Boys - Pet Sounds - Pop (I'm not bothering with the debatable rock tag right now)
14. The Beatles - The Beatles (The White Album) - Pop / Rock
15. Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea - Folk / Rock
16. Nirvana - Nevermind - Rock
17. Pixies - Dolittle - Rock
18. The Smiths - The Queen is Dead - Pop / Rock
19. The Clash - London Calling - Rock
20. Radiohead - The Bends - Rock
21. The Strokes - Is This It - Rock
22. My Bloody Valentine - Loveless - Rock
23. Bob Dylan - Highway 61 Revisited - Folk / Rock
24. Pink Floyd - The Wall - Rock
25. Kendrick Lamar - To Pimp a Butterfly - Hip Hop
26. The Beatles - Rubber Soul - Pop / Rock
27. King Crimson - In the Court of the Crimson King - Rock / Experimental
28. Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - Pop / Rock
29. The Doors - The Doors - Rock
30. Talking Heads - Remain in Light - Rock
31. Bob Dylan - Blonde on Blonde - Folk / Rock
32. The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses - Rock
33. Joy Division - Unknown Pleasures - Rock
34. Kanye West - My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy - Hip Hop
35. Arcade Fire - The Suburbs - Rock
36. The Who - Who's Next - Rock
37. Pink Floyd - Animals - Rock
38. The Jimi Hendrix Experience - Are You Experienced - Blues / Rock
39. The Cure - Disintegration - Rock
40. Kind of Blue - Miles Davis - Jazz
41. Kendrick Lamar - Good Kid, M.A.A.D. City - Hip Hop
42. The Rolling Stones - Exile On Main St. - Blues / Rock
43. Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin II - Rock
44. Bob Dylan - Blood on the Tracks - Folk / Rock
45. Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot - Rock
46. Sufjan Stevens - Illinois - Folk / Pop
47. David Bowie - Hunky Dory - Pop / Rock
48. Television - Marquee Moon - Rock
49. U2 - The Joshua Tree - Pop / Rock
50. Arctic Monkeys - Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not - Rock
51. Pearl Jam - Ten - Rock
52. Nick Drake - Pink Moon - Folk
53. Oasis - What's the Story (Morning Glory?) - Pop / Rock
54. Smashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream - Rock
55. Nirvana - In utero - Rock
56. David Bowie - Low - Experimental / Rock
57. Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin - Blues / Rock
58. R.E.M. - Automatic for the People - Pop / Rock
59. Jeff Buckley - Grace - Rock
60. Van Morrison - Astral Weeks - Folk
61. Bruce Springsteen - Born to Run - Pop / Rock
62. The Rolling Stones - Let It Bleed - Blues / Rock
63. Tame Impala - Lonerism - Rock
64. Sigur Ros - Agaetis Byrjun - Rock (possible ambient tag)
65. The Rolling Stones - Blues / Rock
66. Sonic Youth - Daydream Nation - Rock
67. Weezer - Weezer (The Blue Album) - Pop / Rock
68. Black Sabbath - Paranoid - Rock
69. Joy Division - Closer - Rock
70. Marvin Gaye - What's Going On - R&B
71. Forever Changes - Folk / Pop / Rock
72. The Jimi Hendrix Experience - Electric Ladyland - Blues / Rock
73. Nas - Illmatic - Hip Hop
74. Portishead - Dummy - Electronic
75. Smashing Pumpkins - Mellon Collie And The Infinite Sadness - Rock
76. Sufjan Stevens - Carrie & Lowell - Folk
77. Neil Young - After the Gold Rush - Country / Folk / Rock
78. John Coltrane - A Love Supreme - Jazz / Experimental
79. Radiohead - A Moon SHaped Pool - Pop / Rock
80. Michael Jackson - Thriller - Pop / R&B
81. Kate Bush - Hounds of Love - Pop
82. Interpol - Turn On the Bright Lights - Rock
83. The Beatles - Magical Mystery Tour - Pop / Rock
84. Godspeed You! Black Emperor - Lift Yr. Skinny Fists Like Antennas To Heaven - Experimental / Rock
85. Joni Mitchell - Blue - Folk
86. Prince and the Revolution - Purple Rain - Pop / R&B / Rock
87. Bon Iver - For Emma, Forever Ago - Folk
88. Queen - A Night at the Opera - Rock
89. Coldplay - A Rush of Blood to the Head - Pop / Rock
90. Slint - Spiderland - Experimental / Rock
91. Madvillain - Madvillainy - Experimental / Hip Hop
92. LCD Soundsystem - Sound of Silver - Electronic / Rock
93. The White Stripes - Elephant - Blues / Rock
94. Weezer - Pinkerton - Pop / Rock
95. Pixies - Surfer Rosa - Rock
96. The Zombies - Odessey and Oracle - Folk / Pop
97. Led Zeppelin - Houses of the Holy - Rock
98. Tom Waits - Rain Dogs - Experimental / Rock
99. The Flaming Lips - Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots - Pop
100. Guns 'N' Roses - Appetite for Destruction - Rock

As we can see, there's a significant level of rock here, significant enough to make me tired of typing the word. The need for a couple of genres that are very common even though they're mostly known for overlapping is still a valid need. Psychedelia and dance easily fall into this category. This next version of the list includes bolded titles that indicate changes and differences when the two are included.

1. Radiohead - OK Computer - Rock
2. Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon - Rock
3. The Beatles - Abbey Road - Pop / Rock
4. The Beatles - Revolver - Pop / Rock
5. Radiohead - Kid A - Rock / Electronic / Experimental
6. The Beatles - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band - Pop / Psychedelia / Rock
7. Radiohead - In Rainbows - Rock
8. Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here - Rock
9. David Bowie - The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars - Pop / Rock
10. The Velvet Underground - The Velvet Underground & Nico - Rock / Experimental
11. Arcade Fire - Funeral - Rock / Pop (assuming the (chamber pop) genre is valid)
12. Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin IV - Rock
13. The Beach Boys - Pet Sounds - Pop (I'm not bothering with the debatable rock tag right now)
14. The Beatles - The Beatles (The White Album) - Pop / Rock
15. Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea - Folk / Rock
16. Nirvana - Nevermind - Rock
17. Pixies - Dolittle - Rock
18. The Smiths - The Queen is Dead - Pop / Rock
19. The Clash - London Calling - Rock
20. Radiohead - The Bends - Rock
21. The Strokes - Is This It - Rock
22. My Bloody Valentine - Loveless - Rock
23. Bob Dylan - Highway 61 Revisited - Folk / Rock
24. Pink Floyd - The Wall - Rock
25. Kendrick Lamar - To Pimp a Butterfly - Hip Hop
26. The Beatles - Rubber Soul - Pop / Rock
27. King Crimson - In the Court of the Crimson King - Rock / Experimental
28. Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - Pop / Rock
29. The Doors - The Doors - Psychedelia / Rock
30. Talking Heads - Remain in Light - Rock
31. Bob Dylan - Blonde on Blonde - Folk / Rock
32. The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses - Rock
33. Joy Division - Unknown Pleasures - Rock
34. Kanye West - My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy - Hip Hop
35. Arcade Fire - The Suburbs - Rock
36. The Who - Who's Next - Rock
37. Pink Floyd - Animals - Rock
38. The Jimi Hendrix Experience - Are You Experienced - Blues / Psychedelia / Rock
39. The Cure - Disintegration - Rock
40. Kind of Blue - Miles Davis - Jazz
41. Kendrick Lamar - Good Kid, M.A.A.D. City - Hip Hop
42. The Rolling Stones - Exile On Main St. - Blues / Rock
43. Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin II - Rock
44. Bob Dylan - Blood on the Tracks - Folk / Rock
45. Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot - Rock
46. Sufjan Stevens - Illinois - Folk / Pop
47. David Bowie - Hunky Dory - Pop / Rock
48. Television - Marquee Moon - Rock
49. U2 - The Joshua Tree - Pop / Rock
50. Arctic Monkeys - Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not - Rock
51. Pearl Jam - Ten - Rock
52. Nick Drake - Pink Moon - Folk
53. Oasis - What's the Story (Morning Glory?) - Pop / Rock
54. Smashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream - Rock
55. Nirvana - In utero - Rock
56. David Bowie - Low - Experimental / Rock
57. Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin - Blues / Rock
58. R.E.M. - Automatic for the People - Pop / Rock
59. Jeff Buckley - Grace - Rock
60. Van Morrison - Astral Weeks - Folk
61. Bruce Springsteen - Born to Run - Pop / Rock
62. The Rolling Stones - Let It Bleed - Blues / Rock
63. Tame Impala - Lonerism - Psychedelia / Rock
64. Sigur Ros - Agaetis Byrjun - Rock (possible ambient tag)
65. The Rolling Stones - Blues / Rock
66. Sonic Youth - Daydream Nation - Rock
67. Weezer - Weezer (The Blue Album) - Pop / Rock
68. Black Sabbath - Paranoid - Rock
69. Joy Division - Closer - Rock
70. Marvin Gaye - What's Going On - R&B
71. Forever Changes - Folk / Pop / Psychedelia / Rock (one of these must be excluded to fit the criteria of the example)
72. The Jimi Hendrix Experience - Electric Ladyland - Blues / Psychedelia / Rock
73. Nas - Illmatic - Hip Hop
74. Portishead - Dummy - Electronic
75. Smashing Pumpkins - Mellon Collie And The Infinite Sadness - Rock
76. Sufjan Stevens - Carrie & Lowell - Folk
77. Neil Young - After the Gold Rush - Country / Folk / Rock
78. John Coltrane - A Love Supreme - Jazz / Experimental
79. Radiohead - A Moon SHaped Pool - Pop / Rock
80. Michael Jackson - Thriller - Dance / Pop / R&B
81. Kate Bush - Hounds of Love - Pop
82. Interpol - Turn On the Bright Lights - Rock
83. The Beatles - Magical Mystery Tour - Pop / Psychedelia / Rock
84. Godspeed You! Black Emperor - Lift Yr. Skinny Fists Like Antennas To Heaven - Experimental / Rock
85. Joni Mitchell - Blue - Folk
86. Prince and the Revolution - Purple Rain - Pop / R&B / Rock
87. Bon Iver - For Emma, Forever Ago - Folk
88. Queen - A Night at the Opera - Rock
89. Coldplay - A Rush of Blood to the Head - Pop / Rock
90. Slint - Spiderland - Experimental / Rock
91. Madvillain - Madvillainy - Experimental / Hip Hop
92. LCD Soundsystem - Sound of Silver - Dance / Electronic / Rock
93. The White Stripes - Elephant - Blues / Rock
94. Weezer - Pinkerton - Pop / Rock
95. Pixies - Surfer Rosa - Rock
96. The Zombies - Odessey and Oracle - Folk / Pop / Psychedelia
97. Led Zeppelin - Houses of the Holy - Rock
98. Tom Waits - Rain Dogs - Experimental / Rock
99. The Flaming Lips - Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots - Pop / Psychedelia
100. Guns 'N' Roses - Appetite for Destruction - Rock

The only issue raised by including psychedelia is the complexity of the styles of Forever Changes which is currently (based on RYM's tags) filed under folk, pop, psychedelia and rock. One of these would have to be excluded, most likely the folk tag since it appears last on the primary section of the album's RYM page. This paired with the live version which is not voted folk make way for proper reason to exclude folk and replace it with the obviously much more prominent genre, psychedelia. Dance may or may not be necessary, but it perfectly describes a large role of the unique sound of LCDS, and is arguably more accurate of a description for Thriller than its "contemporary R&B" tag. But Michael Jackson, The Doors, Jimi and the neo-psychedelia albums all benefit from extra variety in the list.
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guzguzgarbit
Book Of Noraia



Age: 24
France

  • #14
  • Posted: 05/27/2020 15:32
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I think a question is whether we want our genres to be like tags or not. What I mean by that is whether we should accept genre that can't fully define an album, but rather refine their description. For example Holiday is more like a tag than a genre because I don't think there is any album that could be referred only as "Holiday", it's going to be Pop / Holiday or Rock / Holiday or whatever... The same goes for psychedelia or dance as I don't think any album would be just Psychedelia or just Dance (correct me if I'm wrong), while an album can clearly be described as "Pop", "Rock", "R&B", "Hip Hop", "Electronic" and so on...

I'm not against this kind of tagging, but we should be clear on this, because I don't see a reason to include, let's say "Religious" but leave out "Psychedelia".

I don't want to start a debate here, but maybe we could start with a list of genres we all agree on and add more as the discussion goes?
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Spyglass
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  • #15
  • Posted: 05/27/2020 16:30
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I think a bigger problem would be applying the tagging system to the overall chart directly when it's overloaded with rock. Psychologically, it could appear one-sided, which could say a lot about our current body. Either one of two things needs to happen to avoid the issue:

A: We ask everyone on BEA to expand their horizons to update the charts.
B: We need to include at least two other tags to diversify the charts from the start.

The former is a leap, and the latter can be easily controlled. There's nothing wrong with the terms. Overlapping doesn't mean the genre doesn't exist, and these genres do need to be acknowledged due to their broadness. Besides, it's possible for a pure psychedelic album to exist. Feels by Animal Collective is a good example. It tales some elements of pop, experimental and folk to help create its unique atmosphere, but none of the elements are prominent enough to warrant the other tags. To file Feels under pop would almost seem lazy. For some of these pop and rock albums, psychedelia is a massive part of the heart and soul, and denying them that is depriving a special genre of the recognition it deserves due to influence and broadness as well as the variety the albums themselves present.

I'll be looking for other examples of pure psychedelia through RYM's charts. I guess they'll mostly be made up of neo-psych.
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Spyglass
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  • #16
  • Posted: 05/27/2020 16:32
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Hold on, I just thought of something. Maybe it could help if we include a message in the "overall" section that reads: "the genre-tagging system is in the development stages. More genres will be added in the future." That might help ease the psychological feeling of repetition.
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Spyglass
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  • #17
  • Posted: 05/31/2020 19:10
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Any updates?
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Spyglass
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  • #18
  • Posted: 06/07/2020 20:40
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We need more discussion if we're going to make this perfect. I understand this "transitional period" where there are no trolls on board is still leaving a lot of room for tumbleweeds, but I'd hate it if all the progress we made suddenly halted. This is a community project and we value opinions.
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albummaster
Janitor


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  • #19
  • Posted: 06/09/2020 08:55
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Sorry for not posting back sooner, my job is crazy right now and wanted to post something substantial rather than put it in a holding position and also had time to stand back a bit and see how the debate unfolds. I'm always in the background fixing bugs, adding smaller features and doing a lot of work upgrading/untangling the forums (they really are a bottleneck for everything else right now because they are so tightly coupled into the rest of the site, but need updating them as the tech is so old. I think I'm about 75% done but process has already taken over two years in my spare time).

Thanks to Spyglass for pushing this forwards (I definitely do need nudging). It feels like we are re-inventing the wheel. We could easily copy somebody else's implementation (several options), or design our own and end up with more or less the same thing. I more than likely have a bit of NIH syndrome, but something that's come from BEA members appeals to me a lot more, and the work involved in building this functionality will probably be a lot less than the actual design work/debate that's happening now. There's obviously differences in thinking about some of this, but I don't want BEA to become a clone of other sites. BEA needs to be different otherwise there'll be no reason for people to come here; so the question in my mind is how BEA can do things differently here whilst providing the functionality that everybody needs (and provide another point of reference for people).

guzguzgarbit wrote:
I think a question is whether we want our genres to be like tags or not. What I mean by that is whether we should accept genre that can't fully define an album, but rather refine their description. For example Holiday is more like a tag than a genre because I don't think there is any album that could be referred only as "Holiday", it's going to be Pop / Holiday or Rock / Holiday or whatever... The same goes for psychedelia or dance as I don't think any album would be just Psychedelia or just Dance (correct me if I'm wrong), while an album can clearly be described as "Pop", "Rock", "R&B", "Hip Hop", "Electronic" and so on...

I'm not against this kind of tagging, but we should be clear on this, because I don't see a reason to include, let's say "Religious" but leave out "Psychedelia".

I think this really gets to the crux of things (leaving aside what labels we use). What purpose do top-level categories provide and what is the definition of a 'category'? When does a category become a refinement/tag? In my mind, a category is an unambiguous container for assigning albums based on their overriding style of music. The point has also been made that a single category containing 80% of the albums in the database won't be very useful for site visitors, but we need to balance that with the need not to have too many categories that they are overwhelming, but keeping them wide enough that the distinctions between them are clear, and that they are labelled in a consistent way. We also need to make sure the site is balanced across the whole music spectrum because the wider audience isn't just the people on the forums, it's also the anonymous user who lands on BEA from Google from a random search result and sees the site for the first time.

Not made much progress on this post, but back to my day job and I'll post back again with some more thoughts...
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Larcx13
Українська музика


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  • #20
  • Posted: 05/13/2021 22:03
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There was a lot to read here so I definitely missed some suggestions.

That being said, being a bit of a minimalist my suggestion would be to narrow it down to the least genres possible. There are wayyyy too many sub-genres in nearly every genre to implement them all.

For example:

Rock:
Blues, Alternative, Folk, Country, etc...

Hip Hop:
Conscious, Gangsta, Alternative, Hardcore, etc...

Metal:
Heavy, Death, Metalcore, Hard Rock, Alternative Metal, etc..

Jazz:
Bebop, Hard Bop, Avant-garde, etc...

Pop:
Pop Rock, Dance-Pop, etc...

Electronic:
Techno, House, Dubstep, etc...

Etc... etc.... etc....

What would be left to discuss in that case is what is considered a "Main" genre versus a sub-genre. Anyways, I'd love to see some genre action on this website so I thought I'd give my 2 cents but it's not fully well thought out, just a bit of a brainstorm.
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