BYHH GW3: Group C - 2004 vs. 2017

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Poll: Which team do you prefer?
2004
31%
 31%  [5]
2017
68%
 68%  [11]
Total Votes : 16

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Skinny
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  • #1
  • Posted: 02/24/2021 22:14
  • Post subject: BYHH GW3: Group C - 2004 vs. 2017
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Please listen to all of the selections before voting.

2004 (captain: kokkinos)

Albums:


Kanye West - The College Dropout [link]


Cam'ron - Purple Haze [link]

Singles:


Link

Twista - Overnight Celebrity


Link

Slum Village - Selfish (ft. Kanye West & John Legend)

vs.

2017 (captain: Hayden)

Albums:


Vince Staples - Big Fish Theory [link]


Tyler, the Creator - Flower Boy [link]

Singles:


Link

Lucki - Sunset


Link

Big K.R.I.T. - Keep the Devil Off


Please use the thread to discuss the selections and inform everybody of your voting intentions. A poll will be added at a later date in order to tally votes, once everybody has had the opportunity to listen to all of the selections. If there are specific links to the albums or singles you have nominated (on Youtube, Spotify, etc.) that you would prefer voters to listen to, please post them in this thread.
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Last edited by Skinny on 03/16/2021 20:22; edited 1 time in total
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Hayden




Location: CDMX
Canada

  • #2
  • Posted: 02/25/2021 22:21
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I know the speed is more a schtick than anything, but Twista's delivery in his peak really was quite skillful. Just a bullet. Not sure how well his music's aged, but he'll definitely go down as being memorably distinct.

Didn't except to go up against a 2x2 Kanye team (especially after the 2x2 DOOM team)— thought you'd throw Masta Ace in the mix somewhere, or at least a Jay-Z single. Figured The College Dropout, but that's it. He definitely hit the scene with a bang. Forgot about Selfish, haven't heard that in years (definitely takes some Kanye-level gall to take the seat from Dilla, but he was kinda fading from Slum Village around that time anyway).




I'm not sure I'm throwing anything new at people with my team, maybe the Lucki single, but I'm hoping people enjoy what's up there and how those releases helped frame hip-hop for a push forward.

I wasn't going to go with Big Fish Theory, figured I'd decide on a single from Vince, but I couldn't figure out which one to choose for the life of me. Bagbak, Big Fish, Yeah Right, SAMO and Love Can Be all have radically different production from each other, yet somehow they come together on the album so well you barely notice. The confidence Vince went into the project with definitely helped it pop, but his willingness to take risks (and ability to pull them off) makes this my favourite project by him. Rapping overtop what I can only imagine was an early demo of Faceshopping (or at least made with the same synth pallet) isn't something I think anyone else in the game would do, let alone try.


Link


And yeah, Kendrick does it too, but that's more a bonus than anything. Hoping there's a few other SOPHIE collabs that end up surfacing... even if they were originally scrapped, etc.


To those who can remember way back to pre-2017, Tyler The Creator wasn't exactly a consistently acclaimed rapper, and I was thrilled when he finally pulled off something as creative, heartfelt, innovative and bombastic as Flower Boy while somehow not losing his goofy self. The compositions of I Ain't Got Time and See You Again still strike me as bold nearly four years later, and 911 / Mr. Lonely feels like something only he and Ocean could have pulled off. I know the record's taken off significantly since, and it even propelled Tyler into the mainstream, but I hope it goes down as a hip-hop classic of the 10s alongside To Pimp A Butterly and My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. Really felt like this fingersnap to stop messing around and throw something with weight. Whatever weird-ass donut-pattern stuff Tyler brought, he brought it, and it isn't a record anyone else could have made. Very thankful he kept reaching higher.


Pained me a little to scrap 4eva Is A Mighty Long Time, but I wanted to highlight Keep The Devil Off, which I think is an excellent gospel/hip-hop mix. It isn't an overly complicated track, nor does it even have too many verses, but KRIT's idea the song hits just like it should. The organ riffs in the second half always get me... makes me think the instrumentation is a Roots-esque live-backing (I know it's not, but yeah). I feel the song deserves a slightly bigger spotlight than it gets.

And Lucki is a very sad man whose low-energy mumble-flows over a gorgeous beat for a 2-minute stint sells it for me. He knows what he's doing and the sound he wants. Doesn't need anything less or anything more— uses his nonchalantness to shine.


I can't help but feel this match is going to come down to the singles for most users... see how it goes Mr. Green
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PossiblyMichigan




Location: How do I meet the strangest men?

  • #3
  • Posted: 02/25/2021 23:09
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Well '04 both has the strongest and weakest album here. On a BAD day I'd say Cam'ron's purple haze is the apex of chipmunk soul, on a good day it's a top 50 record for me. I love it that much. There’s an essay on N+1 where the essayist makes this enigmatic statement about oppressed minority groups hijacking the language of the wealthy. Well I feel similarly about Cam’ron killing it on More Reasons, a beat that sounds like he hijacked the soundboard at the Bellagio fountain and is just balling at the PWI (I am aware that it’s an Earth Wind Fire sample but sped up it has this 50’s rat pack kinda vibe). Cam'ron's just got this wordplay that sounds cool even if it's ultimately amounting to nothing (side note [url=https://twitter.com/len0killer/status/1349411438306226181] this is hysterical). And the skits are just some of the best.

College Dropout is a bratty and inconsistent record with endearing attitude but lacking some of the chops that Kanye would very soon develop. He’s making compromises, inserting unfinished tracks that he doesn’t have the rights clearances too (I don’t care how many Kanye Stans try and gaslight me, the back masking expletives in school spirit sucks), and just inserting songs that straight up drag far longer than they have any right too. At its highs though? Spaceship, We Don’t Care, Jesus Walks? Untouchable. Probably would have sacrificed this one.


Flower boy? Yawn? Well… yeah probably… but also… Look Tyler’s never made anything as good as Yonkers, that said I’d like to submit to the BEA jury that the record preceding this, Cherry Bomb, is super interesting - one of the few modern pop records that tries to play with mixing as an art form rather than just a tool. It is inconsistent but it presents a lot of interesting ideas that I think the rap world would go on to take note from (would Thug’s mixing be as interesting without Cherry bomb? I don’t really think so). Anyway flowerboy is much more consistent than I remember it. My general impression is this is what odd future would have sounded like if they were an industry plant from the very start. Gone are the Arturia V3 synth collections and now Tyler has the money to buy a prophet or a Juno and then just like own on it. It’s fun you know? Fun “I’m rich now and I’m coming out” music. Is it as genuine as everyone freaked out upon on release? No probably not, Tyler’s always had a cynical attitude for milking his trauma for cold hard cash (he said as much during a wolf era interview).

Big Fish Theory’s cool one of the first mainstream records that felt like it was trying to ape from everything cool in the electronic world in the time (the Sophie beats are veryyyy good). It’s certainly his best record to date, most of his producer choices are very inspired, a far distance from his next album which is like half Kenny Beats reptetivieness. Was going to jot down some thoughts on a relisten but ended up having to take this one on a road trip so I’ll come back to this and the singles. I would say I'm leaning 2017, primarily on the strength of the singles but also because everything's at least a tier above the kanye debut
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Skinny
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  • #4
  • Posted: 02/26/2021 09:53
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Big Fish Theory is easily Staples' best, a genuine left-turn that takes from elements of numerous strands of electronic music and hip-hop to create something that not only coheres but that also occasionally thrills. 'Crabs in a Bucket' is pure UK garage (which was exciting for me to hear, as somebody who grew up attending UK garage raves and listening to American hip-hop at home, but never imagining the two together), 'Big Fish' is an aqueous hyphy banger with a instantly memorable Juicy J sample, 'Alyssa Interlude' borrows a pattering, glitchy drum track from Burial or Aphex Twin at their most gentle, 'Love Can Be...' draws on electroclash and French house, '745' is a trap beat that takes influence from g-funk and Mobb music, 'Homage' pays homage to skittering juke rhythms, 'Rain Come Down' is the most gloomy take of DJ Mustard's ratchet music imaginable (with a star turn from golden-voiced Ty Dolla $ign, one of hip-hop and R'n'B's most consistently underrated figures), and those SOPHIE beats are massive, huge, clattering, quasi-industrial takes on house music that are still catchy as fuck. It really is a very forward-thinking record in terms of mainstream-adjacent hip-hop, a massive, colourful jump forward from the greyscale No I.D. beats found on Summertime '06. I find it funny that Vince Staples first emerged as a very wordy, angular rapper who could bring a level of street authenticity to Earl Sweatshirt songs, but ended up making something like this, essentially a sampler of all the cool club music he likes but featuring a much more impressionistic, mantra-heavy form of rapping that nonetheless works perfectly for the beats he picked. I really do think it's one of the most inventive rap of albums of the past few years, and I find it a captivating listen.

Gonna be honest here and say that I can't remember a thing about Flower Boy, which means one of two things: a) I never heard it in the first place, which makes some degree of sense given my general sense of apathy towards Tyler; or b) it's completely forgettable.

Can't really fault the 2004 albums too much, although The College Dropout is bloated and spotty, whilst at other times being some of the greatest hip-hop ever made. It's definitely much more good than bad, though. If I'm in the right mood, I can convince myself it's a masterpiece, but there are too many moments that Kanye desperately wants to be funny that just aren't. On the other hand, Cam'ron is just a genius (I mean, Kanye is too, just not on the mic), and Purple Haze deserved to be absolutely huge. His outsized, absurdist, almost free-associative boasts and measured, economical (yet still internals-stuffed) flow make him one of my favourite rappers who ever lived, and Purple Haze is his masterpiece. It is obviously the best album here. 'Overnight Celebrity' is not 'Slow Jamz', but it's a serviceable piece of fast-rapping chipmunk-soul, whilst that Slum Village song is very listenable, if kinda low-stakes and John Legend-heavy.

Those 2017 singles are interesting. That Big K.R.I.T. song feels like a natural extension of the stuff Tree was doing in the earlier part of the decade, and I just love how ridiculously Southern K.R.I.T. always sounds, even with his backpacker tendencies. I really think he helped to shift the whole conversation around Southern hip-hop when he first broke on the scene, and despite never quite blowing up to superstar status he's always been putting out consistently luscious music and heartfelt raps. I sometimes feel he can get a little self-serious, and those tendencies are present here, but the song works in spite of this. I probably just about prefer it to 'Overnight Celebrity', but to be honest both are just good rap songs. I can't make my mind up on the Lucki song - it definitely has something going for it, but it doesn't scream 'great single' to me. Feels like an interlude. Cool beat though.
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LedZep




Croatia (Hrvatska)

  • #5
  • Posted: 02/27/2021 13:42
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Big Fish Theory is one of those albums that I kinda listened to at the time but not really carefully. On every subsequent listen throughout the years it got better and better, and at this moment in time I think it's my favourite album in this matchup. A year ago Flower Boy would've had that title. I'm slightly less enthusiastic about Tyler now than I was in 2019, but even so I like his last 2 albums a lot. Flower Boy has higher highs, Igor is consistently cool, both are fantastic. Back to Vince, I think the thing that didn't let me fully immerse myself in Big Fish Theory in 2017 was the repetitiveness. I definitely prefer his rapping style on Summertime 06, but the songwriting and production here are easily better. His rapping sounded mediocre at first, but just like the songs, the rapping grew on me over time. And hearing anyone rap over Sophie beat is incredible, nevermind some of the best rappers around in Kendrick and Vince.

Kanye's debut is an important album. It's got a lot of issues ranging from consistency to novelty rapping, but I'm not denying that it's a monster of a project that shaped the 00s hip hop. PossiblyMichigan said it the best: "College Dropout is a bratty and inconsistent record with endearing attitude but lacking some of the chops that Kanye would very soon develop." Although I would probably be a bit more positive overall since there are some incredible highlights. As for Cam'ron... eh. I enjoy his take on 00s pop rap and chipmunk soul, there's some seriously dope songs here, but I cannot for the life of me listen to him more than a few songs at the time. And I haven't yet figured out why. His rapping's decent, the record is long but not too filler happy. I just find myself zoning out after 4-5 songs. Maybe it's the decidedly mainstream and radio oriented 00s style that bugs me a bit. It does sound a bit dated. IDK man, I loved Down and Out as a standalone single, but it sounds somewhat tame when surrounded by similarly sounding songs. I'll just keep listening to Purple Haze until a) I figure out why I don't like it as much as I'd want or b) I start to like it as much as I want to.

Both 2017 albums are better than Kanye's debut imo, Purple Haze is good but still the least enjoyable in this matchup. And also my favourite single here is Keep the Devil Off so it's an easy vote for 2017. Both 2004 singles are damn good though, it's just that Big Fish Theory + Flower Boy combo is tough to beat. Selfish was a great blast from the past, Sunset sounds like an ok-ish interlude.
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babyBlueSedan
Used to be sort of blind, now can sort of see


Gender: Male
United States

  • #6
  • Posted: 02/27/2021 17:41
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This is a tough one. College Dropout is my second favorite Kanye album, and I like it more than Late Registration. He sounds his freshest and most driven here, and the album is a ton of fun despite the sometimes heavy topics. The middle section drags a bit, but the run at the beginning through "Never Let Me Down" is basically perfect, as is the closing set of songs (I never listen to "Last Call" anymore but I suppose I have to include it in my evaluation here). I enjoyed Purple Haze more than I thought I would. The beats are phenomenal, it's a really easy album to listen to despite its length. Cam'ron is my least favorite part of it, but I'm not sure that matters much in this case. I wrote previously about how The Chronic is an album I enjoy but one where I basically ignore the lyrics, and while this doesn't touch The Chronic musically it brings a similar fun environment. The skits are awful and there are some questionable lines, but they don't kill it. Note that "Dick on her nose, now she cock-eyed" is not one of those questionable lines because it is clearly genius.

On the 2017 side, I love these picks. I wasn't sold on Big Fish Theory at first but slowly came around to it. Agreed with others that there's nothing that really sounds much like it, at least with Vince's style of rapping over it. "Yeah Right" is unbelievable, "Rain Come Down" is an underrated closer, but my favorite song is very easily "Bagbak." I do think a few of the songs feel more like interludes and it doesn't really cohere as an album experience, but that's a very small gripe. I also love Flower Boy. At the time I had never bothered with a Tyler album after not liking the singles I had heard from him (I'm torn on Yonkers, I wasn't listening to rap when it came out so maybe I missed the hype). But I loved the singles for this one and the album is even better. I very much prefer it to Igor because the tracks like "See You Again" are balanced out by more intense songs like "I Ain't Got Time," which I think makes it a more robust, well-rounded album. And musically it just sounds so lush and bright. The transition to the closing track, which has one of the best beats on the album, is one of my favorite "transition to the last track" moments on an album.

So it's hard to compare the albums considering 2004 has an all time favorite plus a very good new listen and 2017 has two favorites that don't touch College Dropout. Would rate them something like:

College Dropout: 9.5
Purple Haze: 7
Big Fish Theory: 7.5
Flower Boy: 8.5

2004's singles are good but I can't help but feel like they're lesser versions of ideas on the 2004 albums. The Lucki song is lackluster, but 2017 also has "Keep the Devil Off," which I think will end up swinging this to 2017 for me. Will think about it more over the next week.
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Skinny
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  • #7
  • Posted: 02/27/2021 18:02
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People honestly don't like Cam as a rapper? Sometimes I feel like I'm living on the astral plane. Dude had/has everything - buttery flow, effortless internals, massive personality, great phrasing, knockout punchlines, superb comic timing, authentic street smarts, a dry wit, even a great line in absurd imagery. Cam is basically a cross between Jay-Z and DOOM, and at his best I find him a more joyous, entertaining rapper than either. I trust any rapper who is loved by their own community, and Cam is a god in Harlem. It's utterly crazy to me that some people don't seem to get it. I just feel like: how can someone love the art of rapping and everything it entails without appreciating that Cam'ron did it as well as anybody ever? Then again, I also think Sean Price belongs in that category. I have a real love for rappers who are unabashedly street but still more than a little weird: Ghost, Sean P, Cam, E-40, Suga Free, Roc Marci, Drakeo, Pimp C, Boosie, even fucking Silkk the Shocker. They're like folk singers, man; people who are of the streets but who see the world through a kaleidoscope. Everyone is obviously entitled to any opinion, but I am at a loss trying to figure out how anybody can't immediately see Cam's genius.
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Tha1ChiefRocka
Yeah, well hey, I'm really sorry.



Location: Kansas
United States

  • #8
  • Posted: 02/27/2021 18:22
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Skinny wrote:
People honestly don't like Cam as a rapper? Sometimes I feel like I'm living on the astral plane. Dude had/has everything - buttery flow, effortless internals, massive personality, great phrasing, knockout punchlines, superb comic timing, authentic street smarts, a dry wit, even a great line in absurd imagery. Cam is basically a cross between Jay-Z and DOOM, and at his best I find him a more joyous, entertaining rapper than either. I trust any rapper who is loved by their own community, and Cam is a god in Harlem. It's utterly crazy to me that some people don't seem to get it. I just feel like: how can someone love the art of rapping and everything it entails without appreciating that Cam'ron did it as well as anybody ever? Then again, I also think Sean Price belongs in that category. I have a real love for rappers who are unabashedly street but still more than a little weird: Ghost, Sean P, Cam, E-40, Suga Free, Roc Marci, Drakeo, Pimp C, Boosie, even fucking Silkk the Shocker. They're like folk singers, man; people who are of the streets but who see the world through a kaleidoscope. Everyone is obviously entitled to any opinion, but I am at a loss trying to figure out how anybody can't immediately see Cam's genius.


Bruh, I can literally say this to you about all of the rappers that you don't care for either based on your own personal tastes. Razz
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Skinny
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  • #9
  • Posted: 02/27/2021 18:25
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Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:
Bruh, I can literally say this to you about all of the rappers that you don't care for either based on your own personal tastes. Razz


Oh, no doubt. But all the rappers I don't care for are worse than Cam. Wink
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babyBlueSedan
Used to be sort of blind, now can sort of see


Gender: Male
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  • #10
  • Posted: 02/28/2021 16:33
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I didn't mean to imply that I don't like Cam as a rapper, I was really trying to say that I think the beats outshine him a bit. And even then that largely comes down to personal taste and how much I'm drawn to lush production with vocal samples. And also just how good the beats are. I thought his rapping was solid, and if I have any complaints it was about his presence, however you want to define that. Some rappers feel larger than life or have immediately noticeable unique flows that draw me in, and I didn't hear anything like that from Cam. Also note that this is an opinion from a single listen to this album (and about 50 listens to his verse on Kanye's "Gone"). With more listens I'd likely pick up on the things that make him great. I'll also say that the rapping on Purple Haze is probably better than the rapping on College Dropout, but I enjoy listening to Kanye more because of his vocal inflections and personality. But again, I'm much more familiar with one than the other. Probably just speaks to the qualities of hip hop that draw me in.
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