Socialism

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WindowAbove



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  • #171
  • Posted: 08/16/2015 01:22
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So I have a big question about socialism. Presidential candidate Bernie Sanders is a socialist. I, like many other BEA members, supported Sanders because of the reforms that he said he would bring. However, this morning, my dad asked me about whom I like out of the candidates. I mentioned Sanders, leading to my dad lecturing me about how destructive socialism is.

He said that in socialist countries, even if programs such as health care and education are "free" for everyone, the government taxes the shit out of people to the point where about half of their income is taxed. This leads to people not being able to afford homes because of the incomprehensible taxation. Additionally, though many people believe that socialized health care is the best way to go, my dad said that people under socialized HC are put on waiting lists and even sometimes denied in hospitals due to these lists, mentioning that he knows people in Canada who go through that. Even the Obamacare system, which is influenced by socialism, leads to this for some people. I had never heard of these things before as my knowledge of socialism was from school and the internet (the latter where it is constantly praised while capitalism is bashed).

For those of you who live in socialist countries, is what my dad said true? Do you or people you know struggle to keep a high income and a home due to taxation? Do you get denied from hospitals because of waiting lists? I've seen people on BEA praise socialism before and if this stuff is true, I will not support socialism and Sanders. America has done well throughout the years because of capitalism and free enterprise. Unless my dad is ranting FOX News bullshit, socialism could destroy the US not only due to the taxation but also because this country was founded on free enterprise and could fall apart with a new system. Also, competition is great for businesses because it helps increase the morale to work and make more money. I am now economically conservative for the time being, but it's very easy to change my mind on things.

Also, I think that a lot of people on the internet, especially on BEA, are radically liberal because they think it's cool or that they will be perceived better. If people say that they're conservative, they will be attacked for no good reason. We've seen this happen with Precedent and Bong (though the latter deserved it for different reasons). I think that many people see a popular opinion and then agree with it without actually thinking logically about it or looking into it. I know this because I used to be radically liberal due to things I saw on the internet, but recently my beliefs have changed because I didn't see anything backed up and I think things through myself. I'm not trying to be offensive to BEA members. Many of you are very intelligent and have your own opinions, but I've seen people here whose political opinions are entirely liberal and dismissive of conservatism and generally being left-wing is "cool" on the internet. Look into political things yourself before having an opinion. Have a good day/night, and is socialism as destructive as my dad said it is?
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alelsupreme
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  • #172
  • Posted: 08/16/2015 02:30
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Canada is not a socialist country, it is generally a capitalist country. A socialist country is one like Cuba, where the government owns the means of production.

There's a difference between socialism and capitalism with elements of socialism. The UK, for example, is a capitalist country yet it has government owned health care. The parties which promote this are known as Social Democrats, which from what I understand is generally what Bernie Sanders is.

To answer your question, although social democratic governments with government owned organisations such as a public health service like the NHS or a welfare system would raise taxes, I've never heard of an examplesuch as what your dad talked about where taxes were that great a burden on peoples income.

In regards to tax-funded healthcare available to all at the point of need, based off of what I've heard about the American system, I believe the NHS is one of the greatest things about Britain and should be guarded as much as possible, and that emulating a similar system in America would be very beneficial.
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Applerill
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  • #173
  • Posted: 08/16/2015 02:43
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My mom believes that the Wall Street Journal is "socialist propaganda".

This is all I have to say in response to Alel.
(And no, I'm not JMan's brother)

But to seriously answer WindowAbove, I don't think fiscal conservatism (which an anti-socialist mentality would mostly be) is nearly as much of a taboo online as social conservatism. You can mostly avoid conversations about taxes and the welfare state online, but if you refuse to take "social justice" seriously, that says much more about your general empathy and character than it does about your politic standing.
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Muslim-Bigfoot



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Location: Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­llan­tysilio­gogo­goch

  • #174
  • Posted: 08/16/2015 03:15
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http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_coun...rship_rate
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/20...countries/ (The second link (and many other sources) show that US ranks very low in healthcare quality compared to other developed countries while spending twice as much of their GDP in percentage compared to those other countries. You pay more and get worse healthcare. I'd prefer waiting in the line. So your dad's points are cheap shots; the problems of implementing broad spectrum welfare-system with flat taxation in US are much more deep)

First off, no. Bernie Sanders is not socialist. I like that he calls himself that and if I lived in US I'd support him merely based on strategic reasons, i.e. dragging the country to the center. But no; Socialism has a political side and an economic side. On economic side it's almost always against free market. Now social democrats like Bernie Sanders (and their buddies in Scandinavia) have some of the most free markets imaginable, ranking higher than US in almost every business freedom index. What those countries are is capitalist economies with a hint of socialism (the hint being high flat income taxes and welfare state, the two going hand-in-hand; btw every capitalist society in the world has some hint of socialism and that is the lasting influence of socialist ideas). But you wouldn't call that socialism if it doesn't have the defining characteristic and that is public ownership of means of production (now this can be done in gazillion ways and some of them sure as hell don't look like public ownership but they aren't free markets either). So what people call free market socialism is social democracy which is not socialism. Bernie Sanders sure as hell cannot challenge free market capitalist basis of US.

Second, left and right are arbitrary terms that can mean many things. You seem to be under the impression that liberalism is somehow a leftist idea and by definition goes hand in hand with regulative big state (btw on big state, so-called social democracies are within 5% of US in government spending based on some estimates). But there's social liberalism and classical liberalism. Idea of a centralized government with powerful executive branch is originally a liberal one trying to secure individual natural rights to liberty and property (later liberals have diverse views on role and size of government; what all agree on is that state cannot enter the realm of values, those are for individuals to decide; what conservatives use against "liberals" is to show how they endorse "moral lenience"; this is a hypocritical view because you cannot have democracy and still try to dictate people's way of life, so what conservatism amounts to [despite them using the word freedom a lot] is trying to force-feed the whole population their own ideals while on the opposite side "liberals" are for getting out of people's lives (someone with southern accent proclaimed: "what about guns? FREEDOM MAAAH; get out of my life commie": yes right to carry arms is a natural right indeed!!!) This is why conservatives in US cannot straight up say "I don't want to give contraception to my employee because god says so" and should find a shortcut such as "corporations are people and the first amendment to our constitution grants religious freedom to people so corporations have religious freedom"; which is hypocritical again because it just tries to force a way of life (and doesn't apply in the case of fifth amendment; if it applied corporations could plead the fifth in cases of fraud investigations and withhold documents which would be nonsense as is corporations having religious freedom); many conservatives are convinced that since liberals object to this what they are objecting to is not state incursion into the realm of values but the values themselves; so what they will say to me is "liberals attack our values". When in reality the only people who try hard to push aside the principles of liberal and republican democracy are conservatives). What you call conservativism in US today is an amalgamation of inconsistent and most of the times contradictory positions on issues. This is not a criticism of those views per se but an observation that these views are not a coherent body (along with the fact that conservatives are by definition those who endorse traditional values and tradition means suspension of thinking so there's a higher chance that a conservative view is wrong solely based on the fact that it's not arrived at by its holders by examination and consideration but by hereditary means. This fact [holding views because they are tradition] makes conservatives prone to propaganda and con men are good at propaganda so they endorse policies that adds to their profits and sell them to you in a package with other traditional views) In the end one should have his individual view on every issue. You don't have to buy one package: all left or all right.
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Revolution909




Age: 29
Location: Galway, Ireland's 4th City
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  • #175
  • Posted: 08/16/2015 20:29
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I think a balance can and should be struck in democratic societies between socialism and capitalism. A model consisting of either a capitalist or socialist extreme often fails the socities in which they're in place (see America and the USSR respectively for examples of both systems running amok to the detriment of their citizens).

The reason why socialism is "constantly praised" on the internet, especially from people with an American perspective but now increasingly people from Ireland, the UK and other places in Europe, is because our economies are more heavily tilted towards a purely capitalistic model when compared to the oft-mentioned Nordic model.

Would it be a massive task to switch economies like the US to a model more similar to Nordic countries? Yes. Is the Nordic model an absolutely perfect system? Probably not. I'm sure people who live in such economies have their own feelings on the matter. Would taxes need to be increased to fund such a system? Definitely, though one could argue that such taxes (perhaps 30-50% of one's income) are rather affordable to the average person now that they needn't worry about paying through the nose for healthcare or education. I think it's definitely worth serious consideration, though I'm no expert on economics so don't just take my word for things, google things if you want to learn more.

But you've also got to look at the model that America has and see that it's a model that doesn't work for so many millions of people. Yes taxes are low but to allow such low taxation, you have to accept that an American life is like living a lottery. Prohibitive costs associated with getting sick, getting a third level education or having children can ruin one's prospects. Little right to sick-leave or maternity leave.

I'm a very liberal user on BEA but I have thought through my own liberal positions and thus not expressing such views in order to increase my likability or whatever; I feel that liberal policy, especially with social issues, is by-and-large the best way forward. Smile
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HigherThanTheSun



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Age: 32
Location: UK
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  • #176
  • Posted: 08/17/2015 21:40
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Applerill wrote:
But to seriously answer WindowAbove, I don't think fiscal conservatism (which an anti-socialist mentality would mostly be) is nearly as much of a taboo online as social conservatism. You can mostly avoid conversations about taxes and the welfare state online, but if you refuse to take "social justice" seriously, that says much more about your general empathy and character than it does about your politic standing.


Yeah people on here have expressed pretty right wing economic opinions without having to take cover afterwards, jack + defago + others etc it's completely different to social conservative opinions which basically amount to racism and/or sexism and/or homophobia where people deserve to be challenged for them

I don't live in a socialist country like pretty much no other regulars do either. Most western Europe has what you could call socialised medicine and more investment in other public services ie education/transport/social security which for the most part works pretty well

We pay slightly higher income tax in the UK to pay for it, unless you are low paid in which case you will pay less tax since our tax rates are more progressive. We also have a much higher minimum wage of course which together make being in the bottom percentiles for income much less shit here than in the US, if still quite shit. The tax rates are not thousands of miles apart though

Problems with affordability of housing in UK has much more to do with the higher cost of it vs US rather than people's incomes being marginally lower. It's not possible to have the same supply of houses here as in the US for a million reasons

Anyway I'm not a socialist and I'd be surprised if even close to the majority of people here were so I don't think you're right that anyone who's not a commie is shot on sight here. I think that capitalism when regulated properly, with essential services in public ownership, is what works best for the majority of people and I don't really feel too scared to say that here so Anxious
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Jasonconfused
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  • #177
  • Posted: 08/18/2015 05:20
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Does anyone else here understand socialism as workers directly owning and controlling the means of production? From my understanding of socialism, the food and housing cooperative near my university was more socialist than Cuba.

This is the most socialist clip of Bernie I've seen.


Link

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Revolution909




Age: 29
Location: Galway, Ireland's 4th City
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  • #178
  • Posted: 08/18/2015 10:30
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HigherThanTheSun wrote:
I think that capitalism when regulated properly, with essential services in public ownership, is what works best for the majority of people and I don't really feel too scared to say that here so Anxious


A pretty good distillation of my feelings also Smile
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alelsupreme
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  • #179
  • Posted: 08/18/2015 16:48
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Jasonconfused wrote:
Does anyone else here understand socialism as workers directly owning and controlling the means of production?


Thought that was Syndicalism? Though I suppose it could be defined as the intended end-result of socialism/communism.
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Satie





  • #180
  • Posted: 08/18/2015 17:15
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alelsupreme wrote:
Thought that was Syndicalism? Though I suppose it could be defined as the intended end-result of socialism/communism.


"no, it's not" is the short answer. socialism has been kind of dressed up as a "lesser" "more mixed economy" version of communism since social democracy took hold and people's grasp on jargon got incredibly loose. the central tenet of Marxist thought, of which socialism is one stage, is the social relation of workers to the means of production. that's why old school MLs are wary of people like Sanders who sell themselves as socialists (as nice as it might be for the word to lose a bit of its boogey man-ness in the US) when they're really just LBJ-style capitalists. there's no desire on Bernie's part to fundamentally change the way that workers interact with the economy, but rather to put in reforms that keep the basic framework of capitalism in place.
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