Greatest Rapper

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maxperenchio




Location: Chicago

  • #31
  • Posted: 11/20/2009 03:20
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Yeah dude, to judge "The Greatest Rapper" on lyrics alone is kind of ridiculous, not unlike judging a guitarist on ornate phrasing alone. Totally restrictive- I don't care what anyone says, rap in its purest sense is just as vile and visceral as punk- theres room for scholarly lyrics, but its certainly not the most important part. Seriously, just because D ends his occasional phrase with "yo" really doesnt mean shit to me.
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joannajewsom




Location: Philadelphia

  • #32
  • Posted: 11/20/2009 03:54
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I miss 8-tracks wrote:
or maybe lenny kravitz's little sister or possibly even slash's.

you're right i did edit my post i will admit to that. But at the same time it's pretty damn foolish to call someone the "Greatest Rapper" strictly on his lyrical content. That's like saying Bob Dylan is the greatest singer of all time.

Also you can be Black White Puerto Rican everybody just a freakin it still doesn't change one essential fact. You overanalyze things and you expect everyone to agree with you. Well guess what? You have never changed my mind one iota on any subject that you've posted about.

Furthermore the Lennon quote was not only appropriate it should be tatooed on your forehead. There are times that even Will Smith has been the "Greatest Rapper". Over intellectualize that.


Stupid analogy. You know very well singing and rapping is not the same thing. Singing is very much defined by pitch, timbre, etc. and judging a singer by anything other than those musical qualities is foolish.

If you knew anything about rap, you would know how important the lyrical content is. Gangsta Rap, Abstract Hip-Hop, Conscious Hip-Hop, Hardcore Rap, Horrorcore, Political Rap-- and I could go on-- are subgenres of hip-hop that are defined solely by the lyrical content. Granted, acts within a certain genre may share some musical qualities, but it is the lyrical content that dictates which genre to which they belong. How many other subgenres of other forms of music are solely defined by the lyrical content?

Rap 101: lyricism is the very important aspect. Singers don't even have to rhyme. How many rappers out there make songs without rhyming? Not many, and if they do, it's a conscious decision to break that rule for some artistic purpose. But once they do that, they are not really rapping. Rap needs to rhyme. Rhyme is a component of lyricism. Take away that one component of lyricism and it's not even rap. It's better classified as spoken word or something. I'd say judging a rapper by the most essential element is far from foolish.

Consider this: a signer could sing "la-la-la" and actually be called a great singer, since, in spite of the lack of lyrics, their talent as a singer could still be judged. If a rapper, on the other hand, just rapped "la-la-la-, la-la-la-la" and was all commanding like Chuck D, would people say, "hey he's a good rapper" just based on his vocal presence? That is foolish. Even something like flow is very much dependent on the lyrics and being able to make certain words fit together while showing some kind of order and having them rhyme. Rap something random that doesn't rhyme in a commanding voice, and no one will call you a good rapper. They will call you a good public speaker.

So, take your analogy and hit the road. If you didn't want to talk about lyricism, you shouldn't have joined the thread. Make your own thread. Oh I forgot, you didn't bother to read.


How do I expect everyone to agree with me? That's a baseless claim. No one here said Doom was the best like I think. You didn't see me jump on them. I offered my comments on those rappers that they named, since I was interested in their opinion.

I don't wish to change your mind. You dislike me too much for me to do that, anyway. I just like making you rethink your nonsense.

All in all, though, you're not down with the black experience, and rap is a form of music that arose from the black experience. Therefore your opinion on rap music is invalid. See what I did there?
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joannajewsom




Location: Philadelphia

  • #33
  • Posted: 11/20/2009 04:07
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maxperenchio wrote:
Yeah dude, to judge "The Greatest Rapper" on lyrics alone is kind of ridiculous, not unlike judging a guitarist on ornate phrasing alone. Totally restrictive- I don't care what anyone says, rap in its purest sense is just as vile and visceral as punk- theres room for scholarly lyrics, but its certainly not the most important part. Seriously, just because D ends his occasional phrase with "yo" really doesnt mean shit to me.


Lyricism is the most important part. Once it doesn't rhyme, it's not rap; it's spoken word. The very nature of the music rests on a specific poetic device. I would say that the poetic/lyrical technique and structure is what defines it as rap. The structure is just as essential to rap as it is to the sonnet.

The thread was never meant to be some holy grail of rap discussion. Too often people overemphasize how cool a rapper sounds and how much swagger he has and how dope his beats are while dismissing the weak lyrics. I'm more interested in lyricism, and other users had no problem discussing this. Personally I go to rap for interesting lyrical techniques that other genres can't give me. If a rapper can't give me that, I'll just go to the more musically interesting genres of music. If I just want a commanding voice, I'll listen to a singer.

Feel free to start another thread.
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Detroit Rock Citizen




Age: 60
Location: Livonia, Michigan U.S.A.
United States

  • #34
  • Posted: 11/20/2009 04:56
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joannajewsom wrote:
I miss 8-tracks wrote:
or maybe lenny kravitz's little sister or possibly even slash's.

you're right i did edit my post i will admit to that. But at the same time it's pretty damn foolish to call someone the "Greatest Rapper" strictly on his lyrical content. That's like saying Bob Dylan is the greatest singer of all time.

Also you can be Black White Puerto Rican everybody just a freakin it still doesn't change one essential fact. You overanalyze things and you expect everyone to agree with you. Well guess what? You have never changed my mind one iota on any subject that you've posted about.

Furthermore the Lennon quote was not only appropriate it should be tatooed on your forehead. There are times that even Will Smith has been the "Greatest Rapper". Over intellectualize that.


Stupid analogy. You know very well singing and rapping is not the same thing. Singing is very much defined by pitch, timbre, etc. and judging a singer by anything other than those musical qualities is foolish.

If you knew anything about rap, you would know how important the lyrical content is. Gangsta Rap, Abstract Hip-Hop, Conscious Hip-Hop, Hardcore Rap, Horrorcore, Political Rap-- and I could go on-- are subgenres of hip-hop that are defined solely by the lyrical content. Granted, acts within a certain genre may share some musical qualities, but it is the lyrical content that dictates which genre to which they belong. How many other subgenres of other forms of music are solely defined by the lyrical content?

Rap 101: lyricism is the very important aspect. Singers don't even have to rhyme. How many rappers out there make songs without rhyming? Not many, and if they do, it's a conscious decision to break that rule for some artistic purpose. But once they do that, they are not really rapping. Rap needs to rhyme. Rhyme is a component of lyricism. Take away that one component of lyricism and it's not even rap. It's better classified as spoken word or something. I'd say judging a rapper by the most essential element is far from foolish.

Consider this: a signer could sing "la-la-la" and actually be called a great singer, since, in spite of the lack of lyrics, their talent as a singer could still be judged. If a rapper, on the other hand, just rapped "la-la-la-, la-la-la-la" and was all commanding like Chuck D, would people say, "hey he's a good rapper" just based on his vocal presence? That is foolish. Even something like flow is very much dependent on the lyrics and being able to make certain words fit together while showing some kind of order and having them rhyme. Rap something random that doesn't rhyme in a commanding voice, and no one will call you a good rapper. They will call you a good public speaker.

So, take your analogy and hit the road. If you didn't want to talk about lyricism, you shouldn't have joined the thread. Make your own thread. Oh I forgot, you didn't bother to read.


How do I expect everyone to agree with me? That's a baseless claim. No one here said Doom was the best like I think. You didn't see me jump on them. I offered my comments on those rappers that they named, since I was interested in their opinion.

I don't wish to change your mind. You dislike me too much for me to do that, anyway. I just like making you rethink your nonsense.

All in all, though, you're not down with the black experience, and rap is a form of music that arose from the black experience. Therefore your opinion on rap music is invalid. See what I did there?
you over intellectualized something again. big whoop.
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1234567890




Location: Hollow tree.

  • #35
  • Posted: 11/20/2009 05:45
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RFNAPLES wrote:
Feel free to leave this forum any time, you won't be missed. Razz

Lies.
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joannajewsom




Location: Philadelphia

  • #36
  • Posted: 11/20/2009 06:17
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1234567890 wrote:
RFNAPLES wrote:
Feel free to leave this forum any time, you won't be missed. Razz

Lies.


Cheers
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Elston




Canada

  • #37
  • Posted: 11/20/2009 07:17
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I don't think lyrics are the most important part of rap and you can't judge a rapper solely on his lyrics. If that were the case, then I don't think Dr. Dre would be held in such high regard by most rap fans. The Chronic is an awesome album, but I don't think the lyrics are really the strong point. Not when compared to something like Illmatic. Dr. Dre is really good at producing funky ass songs that sound sweet. The rapping is really good on that record, but not really the lyrical quality. And you know, that doesn't really matter.

It's like starting a thread called Greatest Songwriter and only focusing on the lyrics, when in fact there is a lot more to it. And to say something like 'once you take the ryhmes away, it's no longer rap' is like saying 'once you take that beat away, it's no longer music'
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joyofdivision





  • #38
  • Posted: 11/20/2009 09:34
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I think Subterranean Homesick Blues is the true dawn of rap, with Dylan throwing the bone into the air, only for it to turn into a space station a quarter of a century later (Eminem) Wink
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joannajewsom




Location: Philadelphia

  • #39
  • Posted: 11/20/2009 13:45
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Elston wrote:
I don't think lyrics are the most important part of rap and you can't judge a rapper solely on his lyrics. If that were the case, then I don't think Dr. Dre would be held in such high regard by most rap fans. The Chronic is an awesome album, but I don't think the lyrics are really the strong point. Not when compared to something like Illmatic. Dr. Dre is really good at producing funky ass songs that sound sweet. The rapping is really good on that record, but not really the lyrical quality. And you know, that doesn't really matter.

It's like starting a thread called Greatest Songwriter and only focusing on the lyrics, when in fact there is a lot more to it. And to say something like 'once you take the ryhmes away, it's no longer rap' is like saying 'once you take that beat away, it's no longer music'


Well, I already said this:

"The thread was never meant to be some holy grail of rap discussion."

If I wanted to really get deep into it, my criteria for greatest rapper would be:

lyrical technique (rhyme patterns and other poetic devices)
subject matter (ultimately, lyrical content)
flow (flow should be put under meter, which would be put under poetic devices)
very little emphasis on delivery, very little

However, I already stated that:

"Too often people overemphasize how cool a rapper sounds and how much swagger he has and how dope his beats are while dismissing the weak lyrics. I'm more interested in lyricism, and other users had no problem discussing this."

I think the problem you guys have is leaving out something like delivery, but like I stated I wasn't concerned with how cool someone sounds and I think too often this is overemphasized. Rapping is so close to normal speech and has very little to do, if anything, with melody and vocal range, so discussing someone's voice is not something I'm very interested in. We can discuss the rhythm of the speech, but that has more to do with the meter, which has to do with the lyrical structure.

You guys can start your own thread and talk about whatever you want to.

You seem to be doing exactly what I wanted to avoid by bringing up Dr. Dre. Making a good hip-hop album does not make him a good rapper. He is held in such high regard by hip-hop fans because of the production, not because of his lyrics. Producing funky ass songs make him a good producer, not a good rapper. I was avoiding someone saying something like Dr. Dre because too often people use "rap" and "hip-hop music" interchangeably. That's just wrong (you can have instrumental hip-hop but not instrumental rap). I was trying to avoid this turning into a best hip-hop artist, since people often confuse the two.

"Rhythm and Poetry"

Rap refers to the lyrics, and the production is the hip-hop aspect of it. So, yes, the poetry in "rhythm and poetry" is literally one half. However, it is actually more than that. I say it's the most important aspect because the rhythm is functioning as meter, ultimately a poetic device. The "rhythm" part is used to denote a very specific poetic device that can not be thrown out. It would be better described as rhythmic poetry. So, yes, even the "rhythm" in "rhythm and poetry" is a part of poetry. Kind of making it redundant in a way, but whatever.

The confusion lies in this: the importance of the lyrics in hip-hop music, causes genres of hip-hop to be referred to as rap (Gangsta Rap). This is actually a genre of hip-hop music. Ultimately, a listener has the final say on what's important to them. If I love the sound of drums more than anything, I may think that it is the most important aspect of pop music. However, that ignores the fact that the pop music is a melody-driven genre and the drums are not an essential component in what defines the music, nor are they necessary. "Commanding voice" or something is subjective and not a requirement. However, whether or not something rhymes is pretty objective and take away that and *poof* no rap. The poetic (meter included) aspect of rap is what solely defines it as rap. I don't see how the very essence of something, the sole thing that defines it, is not the most important aspect of rap. Again, we're not talking hip-hop here.


Those analogies just don't work. I wish they would stop. If you really think that the two are the same-- that something like pitch and timbre and melody or the deliberate deemphasis on melody is just as important in songwriting as it is in rap, something which is more close to talking than it is singing, something that is essentially "rhythm and poetry" and does not require the same musical qualities as singing, then I wish not to argue.

If you think that numerous subgenres being defined solely by lyricism doesn't emphasize the importance of the lyrics, fine. If you don't think that the very fact that hip-hop music (which includes the beat and production) is often erroneously generalized as "rap"-- if you don't think that shows you how important the lyricism is when it, in a sense, gets complete credit for everything, fine.

If you don't think that, while a singer could write a bunch of beautiful melodies without actual lyrics, while a rapper can not rap without lyrics arranged in a specific manner-- if you don't think that shows that this analogy doesn't work, then I wish not to argue.


As far as your other analogy, I don't really get it. If by beat you mean rhythm in the sense of temporal organization and not exactly a pulsatile beat, then, yes, take away rhythm and you no longer have music. Fortunately, since we can't alter time, it's impossible to make music without rhythm. I really don't get it.


All in all, rap=/=hip-hop.

Take away the hip-hop music from the Chronic and it's a rap album. Take away the raps and leave the music and it's no longer rap album.

Anyway, if you guys want to start another rap thread, go ahead. Make sure you put all of the stipulations in the title because, apparently, starting off with a general title then expanding on that in the first post is not a valid way to communicate on the internet. Too bad. That method has seemed to work for years. Just make sure that a few people don't come in and ruin it for the 4 or 5 users who accepted the premise of the thread and are willing to discuss in those terms.
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Elston




Canada

  • #40
  • Posted: 11/20/2009 18:16
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You're problem is that you don't want people to discuss anything if it goes outside your narrow definition of what rapping is. Do you honestly think the music isn't important to rapping?

I understand the distinctions you're making, but some of the stuff you say is pretty ridiculous. I won't bother quoting you because it's a waste of time. In fact, debating with you is always a waste of time.
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