I love the contributions you all have made so far (especially Satie's pop punk comments and Rocky's hair metal ones) but part of me wonders whether critiquing others's suggestions (not just from me, but from other people here) goes against the optimistic goal of this thread. The whole point of these artists being mentioned here is that there are lots of common complaints against them, so bringing up those easy complaints once more here is sorta redundant, and goes against the joy I hoped this thread to bring. Does that make sense?
If this is aimed at me I apologize. I don't mean to come off as bashing pop punk, that's been done plenty by others in the past. I am just curious as to what Permafrost's favorite aspects of pop punk are since his original post mostly stated his idea that there will be a critical turn around in favor of pop punk, but he didn't talk as much about specific albums or qualities of the genre. My response was one of genuine interest because I found his original comment compelling. _________________ Overall - The 2010's - 2020
If this is aimed at me I apologize. I don't mean to come off as bashing pop punk, that's been done plenty by others in the past. I am just curious as to what Permafrost's favorite aspects of pop punk are since his original post mostly stated his idea that there will be a critical turn around in favor of pop punk, but he didn't talk as much about specific albums or qualities of the genre. My response was one of genuine interest because I found his original comment compelling.
That's fine 😄 I just think that it's too easy for some of these disagreements to turn ugly and steer the thread off course (see: The Nevermind thread yesterday). There definitely will be a few holes when I talk about Brokencyde, so I want to have feedback on that especially (as long as nobody calls me racist for liking them, as most of the members are of hispanic origin).
Anyway, I was listening to
Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.
Laundry Service by Shakira the other day, and I realized that it's really unique from a compositional standpoint (and I don't think it's an ethnic thing, since albums like her Blake Sheldon-featuring self-titled show this almost as much). Here's what I said in my chart comments:
Quote:
As you've seen through this list, I listen to a lot of really uncool music, but considering that Shakira started as a latin Alanis Morissette, there's something REALLY rebellious about the uncool she has on albums like this (and her self-titled, which ended up being one of my most-listened albums of last year). Moments like those horn blast harmonies in "Whenever, Wherever", or the way she shamelessly imitates Celine Dion on "Underneath Your Clothes" or the cheesy fake-out opener "Objection" should scare me away in theory, but there's something about the way she uses them on the album for self-empowerment, like the sentimentality becomes her own unique aesthetic. She makes music about the most standard middle-class relationships, but this unpretentious focus feels like an intentional sort of punk-rock pop production, especially with her uncensored lyrics about being a crazy cat lady and all.
I'm not even making this up. Listen to "Rules", where she describes what she wants out of her relationship with you, and there's a hip-shaking wink she makes with the music. At many other places of the album, the sound wlll suddenly transition from overly sentimental to rebellious. She realizes she sounds silly and melodramatic, yet she's completely comfortable of her emotions. In fact, as the album goes on, we realize that she is emotionally stronger than we are. Not only is that progressive as heck in its own context, but it's pop-music semiotics for the history books.
RockyRaccoonIs it solipsistic in here or is it just me?ModeratorProfile Maryland
2.) In my opinion, hair metal didn't give you Eddie Van Halen, Eddie Van Halen had a large part in giving you hair metal.
I can understand that argument, certainly Van Halen had a MAJOR influence in hair metal's popularity, considering their debut came out in 1979, just on the cusp of the whole movement. _________________ Progressive Rock
I love the contributions you all have made so far (especially Satie's pop punk comments and Rocky's hair metal ones) but part of me wonders whether critiquing others's suggestions (not just from me, but from other people here) goes against the optimistic goal of this thread [...] Does that make sense?
Not really, no. If the thread was "Music You Love That Others Hate", then you could go "I like this album and here's why". "Defend the Hated Music You Love" sounds like you want to set up a forum where we can introduce an album that was negatively reviewed, say why we like it, and respond to criticism - hence, defending the album.
For example, here is an album I love which was poorly reviewed:
Panic! has always been a really odd band for me, because I really like pop punk and post-hardcore music, and I really think that Brendon Urie has one of the best voices in modern music (which is a way too blanketed statement and no I'm not saying he's better than Justin Vernon or Matt Berninger but especially as pop is concerned, he's absolutely one of the best). The thing is, I don't like when Panic! makes their pop punk stuff. It's OK. A Fever You Can't Sweat Out has some interesting songs, but as a whole doesn't really keep my attention - it's not deserving of pitchfork's 1.5/10 review, but I don't love it either. Vices and Virtues is just way too "look internet, we found out what steampunk is" for me, and the music itself is dated without bringing anything really new to the table.
I adore Pretty. Odd., and while it's not terribly well reviewed on the site (69/100), it holds a favorable overall rating on Metacritic and received fairly positive reviews from the likes of AllMusic, Downed In Sound, Rolling Stone, AP, etc. The weird thing with Pretty. Odd. is that it so surprised fans and reviewers that a lot of people didn't know what to do with it.
And here you have Too Rare. It's another "what just happened" album, with them abandoning any of the punk left in them, any of the baroque left over from Pretty. Odd., and making a full on, dancable, pop album. And so here you have critics going nuts, going all over. Absolute Punk gave it a surprising 8/10. Alternative Press and AllMusic both enjoyed the album as well. But Rolling Stone gave it a pretty average 3/5, PopMatters gave it a really poor review (though they gave Albums of the Year to Thickfreakness and In Our Gun among others so) fans sort of abandoned ship (and were flooded in with new, tumblr fans), it was a weird time to be a Panic! fan, especially a fan like me who was suddenly in love all over again.
I had just introduced a friend to "I Have Friends in Holy Spaces", and she told me a few days later "Thanks so much for showing me Panic! At The Disco, I love their new album." I didn't know anything about a new album. Our tastes in music are pretty similar and pretty different at the same time (she's into classic rock/hair metal, modern garage rock, a lot of indie pop rock, and pop radio), so I wasn't really sure what to expect.
The album opens with This Is Gospel, this beating, thumping, and yet very soft drum, that just drives along an over-altered voice. The autotune in this intro was enough for me to shrug off the album at whole at first, kind of having a "what and why" moment. But then it picks up. "If you love me let me gooooooooo". Brendon's voice is back. Out from whatever unfortunate mistake the intro was (not going to defend anything but the drum, which is so wonderful and such a perfect way to begin) comes this wonderful music. You can even hear his voice starting to break at "I never was your's!", a rare moment of some actual emotion on what was clearly a pop song.
"Miss Jackson" was a really cool listen the first time, and I thought what we were getting now was a new-style Fall Out Boy album. We've got this semi punkish if you squint thing with these intense drums and driving but simple guitar, and some really echoy, lots of people yelling choruses. They seem almost self aware of this, with the line "There's something beautiful and tragic in the Fall Out." As some of you are aware, this song ended up getting way overplayed on the radio and is a little irritating to me.
There's a gimmicky count down that happens as children count backwards. There's another Fall Out-ish "whoa oh oh" bit. And then, suddenly, you hit bliss. There's nothing else that irritates me on this album from this point. You've got this honky, rhythmic synth, and another sort of more bass heavy, shrieking bass, with this semi retro-videogame jingling in the background. The lyrics don't offer a lot of substance just yet, some very simple "We're bored with looking good". The intro to "Girl That You Love" is this wonderful thing, that then transitions into this dark synthpop sound as, for the first time, the effect they put on Brendon's voice works. Suddenly there's some lyrics worth remembering "So what does that make God to the girl that you love, the girl you loathe." The whole song plays out like a simplified, 80s pop version of "Take Me to Church" by Hozier.
"Nicotine" brings back the guitar riffs of earlier with this distorted yet poppy riff that just repeats, then some cheesey synth over top of what sound more like their early lyrics - the song, a metaphor for how awful this girl is for him and how addictive she is compared to cigarettes, with its strings in the background and this really repetitive drum beat, the lyrics being quite so angsty, you can almost imagine it more easily as one of the better tracks on "Fever."
"Girls/Girls/Boys" is this really interesting little song that's got a lot of different meanings and a lot of different things going on. There's a girl questioning her sexuality while Brendon is trying to hit on her but also sort of just go "yeah you're not into me so I'm just sort of doing this at this point." The song's meant totally different things to me at different moments and moods and somehow becomes relevant to my life in a lot of different ways. The bridge is a really interesting moment where he basically admits "yeah, this is my fault, I know, I'm the villain in this story." You don't hear that in pop. If anyone ever sings from a villain's point of view on a pop song, it's just to do drugs, that's the worst you get, rarely do you hear "I'm the one making the mistakes". It can be interpreted that Brendon is actually presenting himself as subconsciously homophobic, scared to date a girl who is bisexual, and that this is his real evil, or that he's intentionally manipulating this friendship and leading her on for fun. Even something like "I Will Posses Your Heart" or "Night Vision Binoculars", which are from the points of view of villains, aren't self conscious, as the characters don't recognize what's wrong.
"Casual Affair" transitions out of this with a brief moment of total relevance - anti-gay propaganda which loops back into the sexuality in G/G/B and gets into the issues of the next song, stating "Looks innocent enough, doesn’t it? But sometimes there are dangers involved that never meet the eye. No matter where you meet a stranger, be careful if they are too friendly". This actually gets cut from the full release but is on the single and I've got in my version of the album because it feels right. The song itself begins to drag lyrically, and maybe can be linked to G/G/B, the whole message seeming a little confused - I'm still unsure if he's going with the "Life is short, let's have an affair" thing or if he's still manipulating the girl from the last song, but he's definitely identifying and discussing mistakes from his youth.
"Far Too Young To Die" opens with this long, almost atmospheric synth, then driving into this popping synth mixed with a heavily altered bassline that gives the intro this fairly OMD style sound. Brendon keeps his voice his own, bringing in some more interesting lyrics as far as pop is concerned, and the choruses really driving up the energy without altering all too much of the song. After the last chorus, the guitars really grind in in this oddly sludgey effect, still overtop all the interesting OMD stuff. "Collar Full" sounds like Christmas. There's an effect done on tubular bells, but really the whole song just has this warm, happy, slower feeling.
And now that you're all cozy, now that Brendon seems to have resolved the issues from his youth, we get this incredibly intimate moment. "The End of All Things" isn't just the ballad to end the album, that trope that's repeated on everything from "Foiled" to "Deja Entendu" to, yes, "Miley Cyrus and her Dead Petz", but we get this overly autotuned moment with lyrics that really do sound like Brendon means them. And it's because he does. This song is his wedding vows to his wife. Almost everything else on this album had multiple writers, people helping. But this track, it's just him, at the piano, legitimately and heartwarmingly confessing his love, before hitting a last note and allowing a full 10 seconds of silence.
Here are valid criticisms I've heard before:
1 There's too much autotune.
Yeah, I wish they hadn't touched This is Gospel or The End of All Things and is one of my only real qualms with this album.
2 I don't like Brendon's voice.
I hear this one a lot, he's got great range and everything, but if the tone of it just isn't for you, that's fine, I can't change it.
3 Miss Jackson was overplayed.
Yeah it was, but there's 9 songs here which weren't overplayed, and Miss Jackson still fits in well with them.
4 Panic! only changed their sound to sell records.
Well that one actually isn't that valid but I have heard. It's not like Fever didn't sell well. And they went back to that sound for Vices and Virtues, and it sold fairly well - not exactly platinum in 3 countries like Fever, but it still was a top 10 album in the US and charted better than Pretty. Odd. in some countries. Pretty. Odd. was described as one of the "boldest moves ever" in rock by Rolling Stone, which is what we call an overstatement, but it was a big risk that it would ruin their careers, that changing styles that drastically would fail. And here they've got another drastic stylistic change. They were already doing well financially, and while their sound could be seen as more radio friendly now, the album didn't sell as well as Fever or Pretty. Odd.
5 There's no heart on this album, it's just fluff.
I'd argue that one. The closing track, his wedding vows, really are emotional, and the moments where he goes over how poorly he treated others when he was younger are interesting for a pop album.
If you didn't like this album for a reason not stated, I'd love to discuss it with you and to defend my album. _________________
I'm a big fan of hip-hop, particularly mainstream hip-hop, and the reason for that is because that (along with like alternative r&b) is the only genre that I can bump and have everyone discuss it. My Biggest Artists in by Precedent chart really highlights the artists that would follow suit with this, but yeah. I'm always questioned as to why I prefer listening to mainstream or dare I say "poppy" hip-hop rather than super conscious, political stuff that makes up a lot of the underground. Of course there are poppy artists in the underground and there are conscious artists that I like in the underground (Milo and Open Mike Eagle being two big ones). Also, poppy hip-hop is just fun to listen to.
2.) In my opinion, hair metal didn't give you Eddie Van Halen, Eddie Van Halen had a large part in giving you hair metal.
I can understand that argument, certainly Van Halen had a MAJOR influence in hair metal's popularity, considering their debut came out in 1979, just on the cusp of the whole movement.
And you could sort of say the same for Randy Rhoads. He and VH influenced a lot of techniques used in hair metal. _________________ Attention all planets of the solar federation: We have assumed control.
RockyRaccoonIs it solipsistic in here or is it just me?ModeratorProfile Maryland
2.) In my opinion, hair metal didn't give you Eddie Van Halen, Eddie Van Halen had a large part in giving you hair metal.
I can understand that argument, certainly Van Halen had a MAJOR influence in hair metal's popularity, considering their debut came out in 1979, just on the cusp of the whole movement.
And you could sort of say the same for Randy Rhoads. He and VH influenced a lot of techniques used in hair metal.
Definitely, there's a lot of people that had major influence in the genre, including Hanoi Rocks who helped create the whole hair metal image _________________ Progressive Rock
Not really, no. If the thread was "Music You Love That Others Hate", then you could go "I like this album and here's why". "Defend the Hated Music You Love" sounds like you want to set up a forum where we can introduce an album that was negatively reviewed, say why we like it, and respond to criticism - hence, defending the album.
Okay, that's fine. I just wanted you guys to know which direction to go.
Not really, no. If the thread was "Music You Love That Others Hate", then you could go "I like this album and here's why". "Defend the Hated Music You Love" sounds like you want to set up a forum where we can introduce an album that was negatively reviewed, say why we like it, and respond to criticism - hence, defending the album.
Okay, that's fine. I just wanted you guys to know which direction to go.
Don't JMan the thread. _________________ 2021 in full effect. Come drop me some recs. Y'all know what I like.
I tend to see a lot of resistance to and active dislike of EAI and Onkyo music. Seeing as I've recently been picking up a lot of old favorites in those genres again and evaluating some stuff that slipped through the cracks or wasn't released yet the last time I was really heavily consuming the music, I'm down to try to address criticisms people have about that music. I don't really wanna start off with "common criticisms" 'cause in this case they come off more as strawmen based on other music communities I engage with, and I feel like people on BEA might have overall better reasons to dislike it than "sounds like it's trying to be smart" or something.
Also, Tanner, I haven't forgotten about you and wanna get my thoughts together on the pop punk thing a little bit more, but I would say the main thrust of what I'm trying to say is that the genre itself seems to have been unfairly maligned in comparison to indie rock music of the aughts, which I think was unfairly inflated by underground and some mainstream critics alike as a way of resisting the fact that they were living in the end-times for rock as THE dominant popular music format (that could have been true even in the '90s, but there was also a rock Renaissance at that time that I think helped to ease the pain of slumping chart relevance). My observation is less a personal critical re-appraisal of those works as masterpieces in some kind of "objective" or "intellectual" sense, though I think they're all fantastic and am willing to give reasons why I like them a lot. It's more of an observation on how rock music might be evaluated by people in the future without political/scene/financial survival investment in one camp or another.
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