So, I want to know more about traditional forms of Asian music, particularly China, India, and Middle Eastern Nations.
For starters, I'll put a top 10 for several regions that I already know pretty well.
Brazil
1 Os Afro-Sambas De Baden E Vinícius by Baden Powell & Vinícius de Moraes
2 Racional Vol. 1 & 2 by Tim Maia
3 Minas by Milton Nascimento
4 Mistérios Da Amazônia by Cariocas & Devas
5 Nelson Ângelo e Joyce by Joyce & Nelson Ângelo
6 Sergio Mendes Presents Lobo by Edu Lobo
7 Campo de Sonhos by Priscilla Ermel
8 Nasceu by Mario Avellar
9 Não Me Lembre Demais, Nem Me Esqueça by Junia Horta
10 Quarteto Novo by Quarteto Novo
Scandinavian (and Swiss) Metal
1 Arntor by Windir Norway
2 In the Nightside Eclipse by Emperor Norway
3 Blood Fire Death by Bathory Sweden
4 Into The Pandemonium by Celtic Frost Switzerland
5 Nightfall by Candlemass Sweden
6 A Blaze in the Norther Sky by Darkthrone Norway
7 Fear of Tomorrow by Artillery Denmark
8 III by Darkspace Switzerland
9 Filosofem by [Burzum Norway
10 Bergtatt – Et eeventyr i 5 capitler by Ulver Norway
African
1 New Ancient Strings by Toumani Diabete & Ballake Sissoko Mali
2 African Electronic Music 1975 - 1982 by Francis Bebey Cameroon
3 Live! by Fela Kuti & Africa 70 With Ginger Baker Nigeria(could also be Expensive Shit or Sorrow Tears and Blood)
4 Faso Denou by Farafina Burkina Faso
5 Set by Youssou N'Dour Senegal
6 La Grande Cantatrice Malienne Vol. 3 by Nahawa Doumbia Mali
7 This is Marijata by Marijata Ghana
8 Shaka Bundu by Penny Penny South Africa
9 Horizon Unlimited by Lijadu Sisters Nigeria
10 Nomad by Bombino Niger
My understanding is that China rejected their own music in favor of western music, and that Chinese music is no longer heard.
RoundTheBendI miss the comfort in being sadProfile Ground Control
My understanding is that China rejected their own music in favor of western music, and that Chinese music is no longer heard.
This is probably one way to look at it. I suppose you gotta realize that when you say "China" did something, that's saying over a billion people decided something. There's likely a trend towards what you are saying, but I don't believe in many absolutes.
RoundTheBendI miss the comfort in being sadProfile Ground Control
So, I want to know more about traditional forms of Asian music, particularly China, India, and Middle Eastern Nations.
For starters, I'll put a top 10 for several regions that I already know pretty well.
Brazil
1 Os Afro-Sambas De Baden E Vinícius by Baden Powell & Vinícius de Moraes
2 Racional Vol. 1 & 2 by Tim Maia
3 Minas by Milton Nascimento
4 Mistérios Da Amazônia by Cariocas & Devas
5 Nelson Ângelo e Joyce by Joyce & Nelson Ângelo
6 Sergio Mendes Presents Lobo by Edu Lobo
7 Campo de Sonhos by Priscilla Ermel
8 Nasceu by Mario Avellar
9 Não Me Lembre Demais, Nem Me Esqueça by Junia Horta
10 Quarteto Novo by Quarteto Novo
Scandinavian (and Swiss) Metal
1 Arntor by Windir Norway
2 In the Nightside Eclipse by Emperor Norway
3 Blood Fire Death by Bathory Sweden
4 Into The Pandemonium by Celtic Frost Switzerland
5 Nightfall by Candlemass Sweden
6 A Blaze in the Norther Sky by Darkthrone Norway
7 Fear of Tomorrow by Artillery Denmark
8 III by Darkspace Switzerland
9 Filosofem by [Burzum Norway
10 Bergtatt – Et eeventyr i 5 capitler by Ulver Norway
African
1 New Ancient Strings by Toumani Diabete & Ballake Sissoko Mali
2 African Electronic Music 1975 - 1982 by Francis Bebey Cameroon
3 Live! by Fela Kuti & Africa 70 With Ginger Baker Nigeria(could also be Expensive Shit or Sorrow Tears and Blood)
4 Faso Denou by Farafina Burkina Faso
5 Set by Youssou N'Dour Senegal
6 La Grande Cantatrice Malienne Vol. 3 by Nahawa Doumbia Mali
7 This is Marijata by Marijata Ghana
8 Shaka Bundu by Penny Penny South Africa
9 Horizon Unlimited by Lijadu Sisters Nigeria
10 Nomad by Bombino Niger
This is AWESOME. Thank you!
Also I just remembered this gem I was challenged to listen to and loved from Brazil:
Cartola (1976) by Cartola
So, this genre is kind of bullshit. But at what point does something step out of tradition and become something else? I'll talk about some stuff that neatly fits in to this thread, but first I want to talk about some stuff that ends up in this type of category that causes some problems.
Glen Velez is a Mexican-American man who did tremendous work in promoting techniques for frame drums.
He's exactly the type of artist the "world music" label was created for. Always thought that label was kind of lame, but I guess it gets the basic job done in terms of providing a basket to stick artists like Velez in. Since at least the Paul Winter Consort in the late 60s (Velez as you may know played with Winter), there has definitely been a growing trend of artists specializing in the music (and instruments) of other cultures and fusing them.
If you had any question about putting Velez on your list, you should you should do it. "World music" counts.
sethmadsen wrote:
I kind of think Genre's in general are, tbh. None of it is an exact science. And even experts can't really agree on definitions of genres. The gist of it they can, but it often fluctuates and massive dumbass arguments ensue.
Grouping music in genres works most of the time because the majority of music falls comfortably with them. But as we all know too well, a lot of music also floats in the margins of these categories and that's where all the problems arise. All we can we do is acknowledge that and accept it (if members can) and vote the way we think best. Members can vote for whatever albums they want in polls and competitions, and if enough other people vote for them too, then for our intents and purposes they belong to that genre.
This genre is the most problematic because it's not a genre, it's a cluster of dozens (if not hundreds) of genres that may not have anything in common other then being outside Western traditions. But in this macro-genre phase, it makes sense to group them together, because most members don't know most of them as well as rock, R&B, jazz etc. -- though reggae's pretty well-known.
FischmanRockMonster, JazzMeister, Bluesboy,ClassicalMasterProfile Land of Enchantment
Like many, my knowledge of world music, at least as defined by this thread, is probably too limited for me to throw out a legitimate top 10.
I do love some Scandinavian music, but that still qualifies as "western" to me as it is European. Ditto Celtic. It's definitely World Music, and I have a monster Celtic collection, but I'm not sure it fits the bill here.
Flamenco is Spanish, which is also European, but it also evolved significantly in Latin America, which is a topic of this thread. I love Rodrigo y Gabriela, and they put on a spectacular, high energy live show.
And how would we classify Native American? It's American in origin, but Native American is certainly not "western" in the sense presented here. I think of Native American as World Music every bit as much as African, Middle Eastern, or Latin American. I love me some R. Carlos Nakai cedar flute, as well as the little known but fantastic Blackfoot musical storyteller, Jack, Gladstone.
What of music of other genres made by regional artists? Regional musicians have been expanding jazz by fusing it with the styles of their homelands. Someone like Benin's Lionel Loueke is sold as jazz, and it is jazz, but it's also clearly African as well.
And what of westerners collaborating with and performing African music. The classically trained Kronos Quartet is famous for expanding classical repertoire, and in this, one of my all time favorites in any genre, they play the music of African composers in a string quartet, often accompanied by African percussion and vocals. The fusion of styles is utterly captivating, and great fun to listen to. I can't sell this disk highly enough. It is a genuine marvel.
So, while I am not necessarily prepared to fully contribute to this game, I an looking forward to seeing what it produces. With artists like Loueke and Kronos introducing me to some (at least partially hybridized) African music, I'm eager to explore more, especially more "pure" African music. So I look forward to what y'all put forward.
RoundTheBendI miss the comfort in being sadProfile Ground Control
Like many, my knowledge of world music, at least as defined by this thread, is probably too limited for me to throw out a legitimate top 10.
I do love some Scandinavian music, but that still qualifies as "western" to me as it is European. Ditto Celtic. It's definitely World Music, and I have a monster Celtic collection, but I'm not sure it fits the bill here.
first - AWESOME recommendations. I've seen that first album a few times and am dying to listen to it.
If you want to throw in a single celtic album or Scandinavian album for a top 10 that's fine. Make of it as you will. Talking about anything that's not Anglo-Saxon is fine.
Basically use "record store" logic. If you were to walk into a record store, you probably would still go to the Rock/Metal section for a Scandinavian metal/rock band, but if you wanted Celtic music, you probably would go to the world music section.
Native American music definitely would be World Music.
RoundTheBendI miss the comfort in being sadProfile Ground Control
So, this genre is kind of bullshit. But at what point does something step out of tradition and become something else? I'll talk about some stuff that neatly fits in to this thread, but first I want to talk about some stuff that ends up in this type of category that causes some problems.
Glen Velez is a Mexican-American man who did tremendous work in promoting techniques for frame drums.
He's exactly the type of artist the "world music" label was created for. Always thought that label was kind of lame, but I guess it gets the basic job done in terms of providing a basket to stick artists like Velez in. Since at least the Paul Winter Consort in the late 60s (Velez as you may know played with Winter), there has definitely been a growing trend of artists specializing in the music (and instruments) of other cultures and fusing them.
If you had any question about putting Velez on your list, you should you should do it. "World music" counts.
Grouping music in genres works most of the time because the majority of music falls comfortably with them. But as we all know too well, a lot of music also floats in the margins of these categories and that's where all the problems arise. All we can we do is acknowledge that and accept it (if members can) and vote the way we think best. Members can vote for whatever albums they want in polls and competitions, and if enough other people vote for them too, then for our intents and purposes they belong to that genre.
This genre is the most problematic because it's not a genre, it's a cluster of dozens (if not hundreds) of genres that may not have anything in common other then being outside Western traditions. But in this macro-genre phase, it makes sense to group them together, because most members don't know most of them as well as rock, R&B, jazz etc. -- though reggae's pretty well-known.
Well said. Totally agree.
It started out as Wikipedia had them, Asian (which included Middle Eastern), African, Caribbean and Latin as separate things to vote for. A suggestion was then made to also use RYM and due to there being about 20 genre's, RYM's grouping of "regional music" made slight more sense for the project. I think only a handful of users are really well versed in African music, but "world music" I think anyone could participate in.
Anyway, back to the discovery/discussion of "world/regional" artists, here's a couple more artists I've recently been listening to... a lot of it is a bit funk based, but I like it. Some of this I feel swings strong world/regional and some of it only fits the bill cause the artist doesn't originate from Anglo-Saxon world.
Hugh Masekela from South Africa - Such A Long Time Gone
Miriam Makeba from South Africa - Chove-Chuva
Ebo Taylor and The Pelikans from Ghana - Come Along
Kutiman from Israel - I Think I Am
So, this genre is kind of bullshit. But at what point does something step out of tradition and become something else? I'll talk about some stuff that neatly fits in to this thread, but first I want to talk about some stuff that ends up in this type of category that causes some problems.
Glen Velez is a Mexican-American man who did tremendous work in promoting techniques for frame drums.
He's exactly the type of artist the "world music" label was created for. Always thought that label was kind of lame, but I guess it gets the basic job done in terms of providing a basket to stick artists like Velez in. Since at least the Paul Winter Consort in the late 60s (Velez as you may know played with Winter), there has definitely been a growing trend of artists specializing in the music (and instruments) of other cultures and fusing them.
If you had any question about putting Velez on your list, you should you should do it. "World music" counts.
Grouping music in genres works most of the time because the majority of music falls comfortably with them. But as we all know too well, a lot of music also floats in the margins of these categories and that's where all the problems arise. All we can we do is acknowledge that and accept it (if members can) and vote the way we think best. Members can vote for whatever albums they want in polls and competitions, and if enough other people vote for them too, then for our intents and purposes they belong to that genre.
This genre is the most problematic because it's not a genre, it's a cluster of dozens (if not hundreds) of genres that may not have anything in common other then being outside Western traditions. But in this macro-genre phase, it makes sense to group them together, because most members don't know most of them as well as rock, R&B, jazz etc. -- though reggae's pretty well-known.
Well said. Totally agree.
It started out as Wikipedia had them, Asian (which included Middle Eastern), African, Caribbean and Latin as separate things to vote for. A suggestion was then made to also use RYM and due to there being about 20 genre's, RYM's grouping of "regional music" made slight more sense for the project. I think only a handful of users are really well versed in African music, but "world music" I think anyone could participate in.
Anyway, back to the discovery/discussion of "world/regional" artists, here's a couple more artists I've recently been listening to... a lot of it is a bit funk based, but I like it. Some of this I feel swings strong world/regional and some of it only fits the bill cause the artist doesn't originate from Anglo-Saxon world.
Hugh Masekela from South Africa - Such A Long Time Gone
Miriam Makeba from South Africa - Chove-Chuva
Ebo Taylor and The Pelikans from Ghana - Come Along
Kutiman from Israel - I Think I Am
I'm going to try those Hugh Masekela and Miriam Makeba albums. The two that I listed are the only ones I know, and that's only because they had huge hits in the United States back in the 60s. Actually all the ones on my list I only discovered because they became someone known in this country for one reason or another. I never would have discovered any of these on my own but rather I just happened to come across them in my normal listening habits. Hugh Masekela had a number one hit with grazing in the grass in 1968, and I happened to have it on one of those K-tel albums that were compilations of pop hits that I found in a Bargain Bin. He's actually just jazz, but there is a real genre called South African Jazz I guess. And also, Manu dibango had a freak hit in the seventies with soul makossa. It was like an early Disco hit, and has been used in many American songs since then. So the point is, you could actually discover Regional music even if you don't have a particular interest in it. Hopefully all the albums people listed here will pique my interest and make me want to explore more.
Doesn't categorizing this stuff as separate from the modern conversation that it is a part of do it a disservice?
Like taking Alfomega and presenting it as something you should listen to when you want to explore the world rather than something you should listen to because it rocks, that doesn't feel right to me. RYM actually has it with a dual citizenship in the top level rock and world categories, so at least there is acknowledgment that it should be thought of in the context of modern popular music. but a group like African Brothers Band International don't have that, even though they rock too, and it feels like the only reason this whole system is in place is because people give way too much of a shit about lyrics being in English. I dunno, I do think it's worth scrutinizing this stuff and that it can be a part of discovery and discussion of music that is relevant to this category but I should probably just leave it alone.
It is amazing Balinese gamelan music and you really won't need to stretch much at all to get a good grasp on all the thrills. I think this can and should win the gold, it is so immediate, please give it a listen.
edit: if you saw this post earlier I changed out the African Brothers Band International track for one that makes my point better so if you read this post before this edit existed then you should click that link again trust me this time it's for real
RoundTheBendI miss the comfort in being sadProfile Ground Control
Doesn't categorizing this stuff as separate from the modern conversation that it is a part of do it a disservice?
Like taking Alfomega and presenting it as something you should listen to when you want to explore the world rather than something you should listen to because it rocks, that doesn't feel right to me. RYM actually has it with a dual citizenship in the top level rock and world categories, so at least there is acknowledgment that it should be thought of in the context of modern popular music. but a group like African Brothers Band International don't have that, even though they rock too, and it feels like the only reason this whole system is in place is because people give way too much of a shit about lyrics being in English. I dunno, I do think it's worth scrutinizing this stuff and that it can be a part of discovery and discussion of music that is relevant to this category but I should probably just leave it alone.
It is amazing Balinese gamelan music and you really won't need to stretch much at all to get a good grasp on all the thrills. I think this can and should win the gold, it is so immediate, please give it a listen.
edit: if you saw this post earlier I changed out the African Brothers Band International track for one that makes my point better so if you read this post before this edit existed then you should click that link again trust me this time it's for real
First, that Caetano Veloso - Alfômega (1969) track is indeed killer - thanks for sharing. I actually have been listening to that playlist while writing this and 90% of it has been great so far.
RE: Shouldn't we just like it cause it's good?
Totally agree. It's the same issue Feminists grappled with. I'm kind of regurgitating what I learned at college (meaning I'm not female, so hard for me to have more than empathy), but it's very similar to the concepts of being put on a pedestal vs being treated like a second class citizen. Women often couldn't feel like "normal" - they were either put on a pedestal (having a thread dedicated to great music not "normally recognized") or treated like a second class citizen (often completely neglected/ignored or worse hated). That was one aspect of Feminism I remember, at least, and I feel like it translated well to what you were saying.
RE: Dual Genre markings
Absolutely. Like I said earlier, Genre is nearly never dogmatic, and nearly always pluralistic. It's not a hard science at all.
RE: Leaving it alone
Absolutely not. I think you bring up fantastic points. As I alluded earlier, a lot of this music is REALLY good, yet how much non-anglo-saxon music makes it to the top 1000 on this site? Yet somehow "the only way" (not really) to recognize it is through threads like this, or "top world lists" or whatever. Something tells me there are less than 25"world" albums in the top 1000 on this site... or any "large publication". Maybe I'm wrong and there's like 50... but all that really matters is there aren't "equal" parts of culture/ethnicity, etc. represented in most music charts.
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