RE: Haydn
Symphonies and Chamber Music
Haydn's chamber music can be more intimate, and therefore, more prone to provoke an emotional response, than his symphonies. That said, I still marvel at his symphonies, most of them individually, but definitely all of them as a group that shows an ever growing musical palette and the very evolution of music itself.
What really gets me is his ever present musical wit in the midst of all that very mathematical precision. Those are two things you don't generally expect to find together, but Haydn's such a master he can pull it off like few others.
While Haydn may not have scaled Beethovian heights in his symphonies, it's worth noting that Haydn completed the last of his 104 symphonies six years before Beethoven published his first, which was no great thing relative to Haydn's previous work (nor was his second)
If you're looking for some emotion in Haydn symphonies, try his symphonies from his sturm und drang period, generally numbering from the high forties through low sixties.
All things considered, you're probably not ever going to find the same level of appreciation for Haydn's symphonies as I do, partly because of what you appreciate most in music and partly because I'm a bit more Haydn fan boy than most. That said, performance can make a difference and I always seem to come back to Fisher.
Now turning to the chamber music, I think Haydn quartets overall may be my favorite body of work. That he being, if not the originator of the form, at the very least its godfather, was able to create a body of work that still stands as the pinnacle of the genre, is rather astonishing. That said, it's great to see you reaching into the less famous and renowned piano trios as they are also musical marvels that happen to be wonderful listening.
I thank you for suggesting to keep trying. And I do think Haydn has some unique things going on with his Symphonies for sure... just nothing really to be wowed by (from my perspective)... YET! I'll keep trucking... sometimes stuff like Ziggy Stardust or other "acclaimed" works don't click with me but sometimes grow on me and then other times it's just overrated. With Haydn the verdict is out - especially when I'm hearing less known names write just as good of a symphony as he did.
I think you are right though - Haydn was ahead of his time and for his time he did amazing work and clearly was great. I mean in some ways it's like comparing BB King with Van Halen or something - different times and different styles... they don't fit in the same pegs.
FischmanRockMonster, JazzMeister, Bluesboy,ClassicalMasterProfile Land of Enchantment
Oooh, that would be a fantastic recording. I actually hadn't heard of Emanuel Ax until I started looking into this, Alfred Brendel's been my go to. Pretty excellent performance from him. Thanks for letting me know.
When it comes to the solo piano sonatas, Brendel's definitely the man. I
RoundTheBendI miss the comfort in being sadProfile Ground Control
Wow, all three of these are incredible. Not only do you have the German national anthem [and yes they don't sing the nationalism side of it anymore] (and I guess it was Austria's first), you have Sunrise and Fifths which are equally incredible and even the Emperor had movements I hadn't heard before that were fantastic (everyone has heard the German national anthem). All of these have flair/a bit of the positivity/joy of humanity.
String Quartet No. 62 in C major ("Emperor"), Op. 76/3, H. 3/77
Quote:
This is both the most popular and most notorious of Haydn's string quartets, all because of the second movement, a beautiful hymn that was later misappropriated by the twentieth century's most evil regime. Back in the late eighteenth century, Napoleon was posing a serious threat to the Hapsburg empire; after his armies raided Styria in 1796 Haydn was driven to a burst of nationalism. He set patriotic words by L.L. Haschka as a so-called Kaiserlied, and had an immediate hit on his hands. He determined to write all the "popularized" arrangements himself, including one for string quartet. This became the slow movement of the third quartet of his opus 76 set. The moving, noble melody has been too good to pass up. Later composers, including Czerny and Smetana, incorporated it into works of their own. And a few decades after the Austrian empire finally collapsed, Germany's Nazis commandeered the melody for the song "Deutschland über alles." This limited the quartet's popularity among the Allies during and immediately after World War II, but the taint soon washed away.
The whole quartet seems to be a patriotic effort once you realize that the first bar of the opening Allegro is a musical anagram. Its notes correspond to the first letters of the words "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" (with "Caesar" apparently filling in for "Kaiser"); this is the opening line of the Kaiserlied on which the second movement is based. This is hardly obvious unless you examine the score, for all you hear is a bright, bouncy C-major tune that the first violin soon appropriates with an obsessive dotted rhythm. In the late eighteenth century, by the way, that rhythm was symbolically associated with royal occasions. All the movement's principal thematic matter is derived from this small bit of music. The development section includes a characteristically Haydnesque surprise: an E-major Hungarian scene with a gypsy-like accompaniment of strong accents on weak beats. This was Haydn's nod to the Hungarian aristocrats who employed Haydn and commissioned these quartets; they were footing a big part of the bill for the emperor's war against Napoleon.
The second movement, Poco adagio-cantabile, begins with an especially sweet statement of the Emperor Hymn, then puts it through four variations. The first is a quiet but ornate elaboration for the first violin, while the second fiddle plays the theme in its original form. The next variation shifts the theme down to the cello, with the viola and second violin providing harmony and the first violin offering counterpoint. The viola finally gets its own statement of the theme in the third variation while the top and bottom instruments wind around it. Finally comes a richly harmonized version of the theme with more elaborate inner voices than in the beginning, but nothing as complex as what has come in between.
The Minuet is a good-humored drawing-room dance, marked especially by a slightly mocking downward-drifting figure in the first violin. The trio is a cautious- sounding variation of the Minuet's main theme.
The Presto finale thrusts us into what one analyst has described as a C-minor battle scene: Franz vs. Napoleon. The movement does begin with three loud, jagged chords and eventually has the first violin fire off a barrage of eighth notes, but there's little explicitly militaristic about the music. After this material is intensely developed, the main themes return in a C major version that certainly sounds optimistic, though not necessarily triumphant. -Description by James Reel
String Quartet No. 63 in B flat major ("Sunrise"), Op. 76/4, H. 3/78
Quote:
As a student the difficult Beethoven has come and gone, no doubt to the relief of both. Haydn goes from one incredible accomplishment to another and none perhaps greater than this quartet.
It is well named. The violin emerges from the ensemble exactly as the sun rises. This figure alternates with another more bustling theme. Each time the one participates more in the qualities of the other. The adagio unfolds with a dependence on the cello that shapes and directs. There is even a short canonic passage for violin and cello. The minuet is almost a country-dance and its trio suggests a bagpipe. The finale encompasses great variety within a very short time. The melody is sedately gay set off with contrasing passages in which the violin ventures into a near-harmonic range. The music becomes more strongly inflected, there is a brief fugue and a bravura finish at breakneck speed. - Description by Bob Williams
String Quartet No. 61 in D minor ("Fifths"/"The Bell'/"The Donkey"), Op. 76/2, H. 3/76
Quote:
This quartet takes its primary nickname, "Fifths," from the dramatic falling intervals with which the first violin announces itself in the opening bars, a motif that Haydn will work obsessively and powerfully through the course of the Allegro -- the intervals of fifths sometimes falling but also sometimes rising. This is music of sharp, dramatic contrasts, now urgent and then fairly easygoing, with the development section frequently shifting big chords off the expected beat and even bringing everything to momentary halts.
There could hardly be greater contrast than with the slow movement, Andanteo o più tosto allegretto. The main melody rocks almost like a cradle song, or perhaps a barcarolle, with a delicate pizzicato accompaniment. This melody submits to extensive variation, with significant modulations in the middle section, and makes its final appearance in a highly embellished form.
The third movement, Allegro ma non troppo, is sometimes called the "Hexenmenuett" (Witches' Minuet), with its weird melody played by the violins in duet, imitated canonically in octaves by violin and cello. The trio is no less disquieting, with its relentless ostinato accompaniment for a melody that seems rather out of kilter.
The finale, Vivace assai, is comparatively conventional by Haydn's standards. Its principal theme first appears in D minor, but after several energetic episodes (some of which lurch to brief, sudden standstills, as in the first movement), the theme creeps back in D major to lead the way into a fast, brilliant conclusion. - Description by James Reel
Era: Classical
Year: 1796 - Trumpet Concerto E-Flat, Hob.7e-1 (Haydn)
Form: Trumpet Concerto
Score: 85 for the album (87 for Haydn's effort)
This is a compilation of fine trumpet work. I thought about the difference in jazz and classical music for the trumpet and interesting how the same instrument can be played with to sound unique in those forms. Anyway, this was quite nice, I came here mostly for Haydn's Trumpet Concerto E-Flat, Hob.7e-1, but the rest of the efforts were definitely worth my time. Anyway, this reminded me a bit of Mozart...
Quote:
A favorite of the trumpet repertoire and possibly Haydn's most popular concerto, this work was composed in 1796 while the composer was working on the Creation. In the final years of his career Haydn seemed to prefer large choral works to instrumental pieces, but he was intrigued by a request for a concerto from Anton Weidinger, the trumpeter in the Vienna Court Orchestra. The valveless trumpets of the time could play only notes derived from a fundamental pitch and its related harmonic series, and so trumpet music tended to be melodically limited. Weidinger invented a keyed trumpet along the lines of a woodwind instrument; with drilled holes in the body of the instrument, the player could easily raise the pitch in half-tone steps, enabling them to play chromatic passages. The modern trumpet has been greatly refined since Weidinger's time, but the principle remains the same. Weidinger did not perform the Concerto in public until 1800. Surviving in a single manuscript copy, this extraordinary work wasn't performed again until 1929.
Splendidly orchestrated, Haydn's concerto fully exploits the trumpet's new technical abilities. The opening Allegro is festive and radiant, with the orchestra introducing the main themes before they're taken up by the soloist. There's a motif that initially rises, subsequently allowing the trumpet to show off its new stock of notes in the low register. This motif evolves into a fanfare-like subject, which the soloist enriches with effective trills and other ornamentation. The development section requires the trumpeter to play in different keys, which would have been impossible on a valveless trumpet. Opening with a lovely, expansive melody in siciliano style, the second movement reveals the full lyrical and expressive potential of the new trumpet. In addition, this movement, which exemplifies the consummate melodic artistry of Haydn's late works, showcases the instrument's ability to easily modulate from key to key. Written in a sonata rondo form, the concluding Allegro begins with an angular, fanfare-like theme, continuing with material which calls upon the soloist's dexterity in handling trills and other technical effects. Following a concise, brief development section which mainly negotiates primary thematic material, a recapitulation leads the trumpeter to a higher, brighter tessitura. A spirited combination of technical brilliance and musical élan, the third movement ends with a gleaming, celebratory coda. -Description by James Reel
Now that you’re really coming to the real classics (in both meanings of the word), I’ll certainly come back to this forum when I want to get into some of the best works and recordings because it’s really interesting. I think that’ll be for next year.
FischmanRockMonster, JazzMeister, Bluesboy,ClassicalMasterProfile Land of Enchantment
So nice that you've taken a shine to Haydn Quartets! Yes, they are indeed a marvelous body of work. Even the weaker among them is worth a listen and the late, greater ones are among the most elite of musical royalty.
I remember when Naxos got rolling as a label and when they released the Kodaly recordings of the Haydn quartets. To the best of my knowledge, that was the first time a label had so effectively put out such high quality performances/recordings at such a low price point. They really shook up the industry for a while there, and their Haydn quartets were a big part of that.
Relatively speaking, the trumpet concerto is a lightweight, but it's still a great listen , remains popular, and frequently programmed for good reason. It's not something I listen to often, but it's also something I would't wan tot be without.
Now that you’re really coming to the real classics (in both meanings of the word), I’ll certainly come back to this forum when I want to get into some of the best works and recordings because it’s really interesting. I think that’ll be for next year.
Yes! Post Handel-Bach-Vivaldi-Haydn-Mozart (etc) and now finally getting around to some "real" classics! 🤔
RoundTheBend wrote:
I mean in some ways it's like comparing BB King with Van Halen or something - different times and different styles...
And yes, BB King > Haydn / Van Halen > Beethoven 😎
🤥
😉 (yes I realize what you actually meant...)
_______________________________________________
What I really wanted to say...
This is all a very impressive and comprehensive journey and Im sure youre putting an absurd amount of listening and time into it, but... something I do want to point out is that I think, in many cases, youre missing the boat (somewhat) on the recordings. Not that your selections are ever "bad" -- theyre generally fine examples -- but rarely do I see a selection here that imo would be top 5 or the best for a particular work. This could be mitigating your enjoyment more than you might realize as the chances youre aligning to the composer's vision/purpose/inspiration/expressiveness (etc) as much as you would want to (for max/near max impact) with a recording that doesnt quite do so itself, is not very high.
I am not referring to certain works like Four Seasons which have at least 15 top notch recordings all of which nail the work at or near the best of the best (and all of your selections on that one were among the best, especially Carmignola and Adrian Chandler...).
But there are many examples of good/great (but 2nd, 3rd tier) recordings here too. Karajan for Mozart & Haydn? being particularly head scratching. Again, he's "okay" for both but he is no match for, say, Bruggen's Haydn or Jirí Belohlávek's Mozart...
Anyway thought it was worth pointing out as this is more important than a lot of people realize...
(of course I can recommend alternatives in several cases if its something youre interested in and would utilize)
Also, I do want to make it known that I love this project, so please don't take that as a knock on it overall 😁 _________________ Best Classical Best Films Best Paintings
RoundTheBendI miss the comfort in being sadProfile Ground Control
Era: Classical
Year: 1798
Form: Oratorio
Score: 90 (maybe higher, but there for now)
Wow, this is quite the incredible body of work. I mean it's on par (imo) with Bach's and Mozart's Masses/Requiem, as well as Handel's Oratorios. I'm most impressed with the opening and it's impressionistic effort (especially since Haydn's works I've seen haven't done something like that before). It's easily the most serious effort I've heard of Haydn's. And I'm glad as this is the last effort of his I'm reviewing for now. I was incredibly impressed with it's execution of painting the western creation myth, as well as the musical elements used here - possibly most impressed with the soprano work here. It's a bit long though - I think it may have become one of my favorite works of all time if it had "trimmed" some fat, or as we say on modern albums, had less filler.
One of Haydn's two greatest choral masterpieces, his oratorio The Creation was composed during 1795, to a libretto specially prepared by the Baron Gottfried von Swieten, and based jointly upon the Book of Genesis, supplemented by appropriate sections of the Book of Psalms, and on John Milton's allegorical study of the creation and fall, Paradise Lost.
By this time, however, the once seemingly unstoppable Handelian cult of oratorio was rapidly becoming outmoded and unfashionable, in the face of the Enlightenment's call to reason and the rejection of religious dogma in favor of the pursuit of material objectivity. It seems not a little ironic, in retrospect, therefore, that a theme already rejected by Handel himself should provide a point of convergence for Haydn's devout religious faith and the prevailing intellectual climate of the age, engineering at the same a new-found confidence in a genre which seemed to have had its day. The scholar Hans Schnoor called this "an exceptional instance of the complete musical interpretation of the social and individual psyche," and it was doubly remarkable considering the eccentricities and idiosyncrasies which are to found peppering von Swieten's text.
The oratorio begins with one of the most futuristic episodes to be found in any pre-Romantic music. This is the famous "Representation of Chaos," which serves as a preface to the work. The unfocused harmonic textures and atmosphere of vague formlessness must have stunned Haydn's contemporaries, and the section still sounds uncanny and highly impressionistic to modern ears.
Another equally inspired moment, and one of which John Milton would doubtless have approved, comes as the chorus sings over a hushed, slowly pulsing orchestral background "And the spirit of God moved on the face of the waters...."
Suddenly, incredibly, "There was light!" sing the chorus, in one of the most spine-tingling C major fortissimo eruptions to be found anywhere in music! It was a logical, natural move, and one which was wholly characteristic of late, great Haydn at the summit of his powers. There now follows one exultant outpouring after another, as the chorus of the heavenly host sing praises in honor of each successive day of creation.
Narrative or purely descriptive numbers are given over to the three soloists, named after the archangels Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael, supported by orchestra alone. However, Haydn's expertly applied technical skills ensures that there is a pleasing balance throughout between the respective vocal and instrumental forces, as can be heard whenever chorus and soloists are heard together. Good examples of this are "The marv'llous work behold amazed" for soprano with chorus, and the trio "Most beautiful appear," which leads directly to the chorus "The Lord is Great." In this section, all three soloists and chorus are employed, with orchestra, as they are also in the most famous section of the oratorio "The Heavens are telling the Glory of God." -Description by Michael Jameson, AllMusic.com
Highlights:
First 7ish minutes
At about 11 minutes as the "es wurde licht" moment occurs.
At about 17 minutes you'll hear some very powerful soprano work.
Anyway... there's a lot of amazing parts and I don't have time to find them all in this video.
dihansse
Yeah - I'd love to see it! It's been a fun thing and it seems like historical context of music seems as key to you as it does to me, I'd strongly recommend it.
I will agree with AfterHours' assessment and probably 50-80% of the recordings I chose are at least top 10 recordings (guessing), but they really aren't the absolute best.
For me, I chose a work, and sampled what I could find on Spotify and chose the recording that resonated with me in comparison to the others. I didn't spend more than 2-10 minutes making that decision. Sometimes it was obvious and other times a bit more difficult.
As to Karajan, I know he's bagged on a lot, but the reason I chose him often was because he usually is head of a strong "band" like Berlin or Wien, so I know the performances are at least top 5. The other reason is the resources of Deutsche Grammaphone - they usually did the recording process the "best". But for energy/style/interpretations that were 100% accurate/HIP, etc. I totally agree, he's not 100% the man.
And yes, choosing the wrong recording will absolutely kill your enjoyment of the work. It's like listening to a cover band instead of the "actual band". I know that's kind of a poor comparison, but I'm sure you all have had that experience. Or heck, even the actual band but they can't play live worth shit - it's all studio trickery. For example PJ Harvey sounded like shit live (to me), but her records are much better... had I based my experience just on her live show, I'd be missing out on a decent artist.
RE: Fischman And yes, Haydn has his claws in me now... I coasted through his symphonies (but will revisit with another set of recordings (likely the one set that has them all we discussed... forgetting the name right now) thinking these are nice but nothing spectacular (some better than others obviously on the scale), but it seems like I've taken quite the liking to any of the chamber music he's done and the Die Schöpfung was absolutely fantastic. I'll take your and now Afterhours' advice as well to perhaps revist them with that other recording. It's kind of a shame I chose that recording first and then was like, hell no, I'm not putting in 3 to 4 movement symphonies x 104 into a database. But now I'm wishing I had spent less time worrying about the database and more about the music... especially since I didn't do what I really wanted to (rate each movement/work individually and then average it out like I did with "album era" music). I'm kind of wishing I had because I don't feel my benchmark is great right now... I trust very little on my ratings for this project other than I'm saying comparative things like if that's an 85 then this is an 87, and that's where you get into slippery slope type issues. Anyway, it's a perfect science, right? hehe.
For now, I'm just glad to be enjoying all this music - I'm choosing the best music over centuries of time, so it literally nearly always is top tier music. Good luck on the comparative logic on that... so I'm just going with what I like the most. Nothing really more or less right now... maybe I should start giving things a rating like this:
A=Amazing throughout
B=It was mostly amazing
C=Was barely amazing
D=I'm shocked it's lasted this long as something people still listen to
Last edited by RoundTheBend on 08/30/2019 06:04; edited 1 time in total
RoundTheBendI miss the comfort in being sadProfile Ground Control
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RoundTheBend
Fischman
dihansse
AfterHours
