In terms of individual albums having wildly divergent rankings between the two sites, I suspect a lot of that is down to "virality," as well as the sheer determination of the band's fanbase. It's just easier to pump up an album's ranking on RYA due to the formula they use and the (much?) lower amount of effort required.
Expanding on that thought, RYM’s system could also be exploited in a more “sinful” way, considering that ratings work both ways. What I mean is that not only can a “trending” album climb the ranking ladder through the process you just described, its fanbase can try to further manipulate its overall ranking by giving abysmal ratings to “rival” albums, namely albums that compete for the same spots.
This doesn’t work in BEA’s case as the worst thing you can do to an album is ignore it and not include it in any of your charts.
And yes, I know this may seem far-fetched and I don’t think it actually happens -as I’ve already said, I prefer RYM’s chart by a considerable margin anyway– simply some food for thought. _________________ Bob Dylan Charles Mingus
Expanding on that thought, RYM’s system could also be exploited in a more “sinful” way, considering that ratings work both ways. What I mean is that not only can a “trending” album climb the ranking ladder through the process you just described, its fanbase can try to further manipulate its overall ranking by giving abysmal ratings to “rival” albums, namely albums that compete for the same spots.
Indeed, and there are probably lots of good examples of that (and of how "virality" can work both ways in general) if one knows where to look!
The one that immediately comes to mind for me (at the moment, anyway) is the 100 gecs album, 1000 gecs. BEA has it ranked #27 for 2019, whereas RYM has it at #339, almost certainly due to "brigading" by people on RYM who had a bad reaction to the enthusiasm shown for it by 100 gecs fans on various websites. RYM also doesn't seem to have an overall ranking for it at all (and I wonder if maybe they blanked it, because too much of that stuff was going on). The "correct" ranking is probably somewhere in between, but I'd be more inclined towards the BEA ranking in a case like that, whether I actually liked the album or not.
Personally I'm less concerned about this because most of the stuff I listen to is either too obscure to be subject to fanbase rivalries or too old for anyone to bother putting in all that much effort. But it could definitely be a problem for more recent stuff.
Interesting thoughts from you guys, thanks for posting.
I can see how some trigger happy ratings could skew the charts on RYM, but I'm wondering if the high number of ratings averages out some of this behaviour, at least towards the top end of the chart. In its favour, RYM has way more ratings than BEA has charts (due to the ease of rating) and that does give you a better sample size.
My biggest concern with RYM is the variability in the number of ratings for each album in the top 100, which tells it's own story...With the default settings the range of ratings across the top 100 is around 18,000-80,000, not bad except for the outlying Fall Peel Sessions album I keep mentioning, which has only around 800 ratings. It has about 1% of the number of ratings given to OK Computer. If you adjust the settings so boxsets are weighted like other albums (see definition of this before), the standing of this album at #32 looks a bit dubious. The same is pretty much true with the live albums and other box sets that enter the top 100 when these are weighted. They don't have the same number of ratings as the normal studio albums, but the weighting for some reason propels these albums up the charts. Presumably because weighting has a bigger effect on albums that only have a small number of ratings relative to albums given lots of ratings.
This leaves RYM with a tricky dilemma. Either deweight (or exclude) live albums and box sets (which is the default setting but is a bit silly because all the other albums are weighted ) or weight these albums and allow some albums with a relatively small number of ratings to rocket up the charts.
I prefer to look at the chart with all the albums weighted. At least then I know there is consistency across the albums, though I don't think the weighting system works well due to the effect I just described.
The one that immediately comes to mind for me (at the moment, anyway) is the 100 gecs album, 1000 gecs. BEA has it ranked #27 for 2019, whereas RYM has it at #339, almost certainly due to "brigading" by people on RYM who had a bad reaction to the enthusiasm shown for it by 100 gecs fans on various websites. RYM also doesn't seem to have an overall ranking for it at all (and I wonder if maybe they blanked it, because too much of that stuff was going on). The "correct" ranking is probably somewhere in between, but I'd be more inclined towards the BEA ranking in a case like that, whether I actually liked the album or not.
RYM lists the overall rankings for albums in the top 10,000. If an album doesn't have an overall rank on its page, that means it isn't in the all-time top 10,000 at all. I believe the highest-ranked album on BEA that is not in the RYM 10K is American Idiot.
The Fall’s Complete Peel Sessions is the kicker. That’s like the greatest shit ever. _________________ 2021 in full effect. Come drop me some recs. Y'all know what I like.
The one that immediately comes to mind for me (at the moment, anyway) is the 100 gecs album, 1000 gecs. BEA has it ranked #27 for 2019, whereas RYM has it at #339, almost certainly due to "brigading" by people on RYM who had a bad reaction to the enthusiasm shown for it by 100 gecs fans on various websites. RYM also doesn't seem to have an overall ranking for it at all (and I wonder if maybe they blanked it, because too much of that stuff was going on). The "correct" ranking is probably somewhere in between, but I'd be more inclined towards the BEA ranking in a case like that, whether I actually liked the album or not.
RYM lists the overall rankings for albums in the top 10,000. If an album doesn't have an overall rank on its page, that means it isn't in the all-time top 10,000 at all. I believe the highest-ranked album on BEA that is not in the RYM 10K is American Idiot.
Thanks, I find that interesting too. American Idiot is like the inverse of The Fall’s Peel sessions in that respect. It definitely says something about the difference between these two websites.
The Fall’s Complete Peel Sessions is the kicker. That’s like the greatest shit ever.
I've never heard it. I remember searching for it a couple of years ago but came up empty (pre-streaming days). Looks like it's on Spotify now, so I don't quite have an excuse. I know it's nearly 100 tracks, but I can't think of any reason not to dive in. I love the Peel Sessions. I wish more made BEA's "album" threshold— I'd be great for them to be on here. Definitely a special part of music history.
Should be able to hit play this weekend. 😄 _________________ Doubles & Conch
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