CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon - Games

Kool Keith Sweat

The country of origin actually had nothing to do with anything, except that I colloquially call him "Frenchman" when I chat to him.

(1) so where's the cut off for post punk, and would you call other '79 and '80 albums like The Wall and Back in Black post punk? '80s era U2 also would not have happened without punk. Do you begin to see how futile this criterion is?

(2) I wish I could bring him back to explain

Finally, as an english teacher, you should recognize the difference between childish and childlike.

I really have no reason to argue with you, but if you keep on insisting, I'm here.

meccalecca

Voice of Reason

Gender: Male

Location: The Land of Enchantment

Norman Bates wrote:

I fail to see how Cellar's virtual point would have to do with his being a fellow countryman. However accurately quoted the point may be, though, it may be right.

These are ridiculous semantics. There's no decisive evidence to prove whether or not Soft Moon is really "post-punk". Maybe the correct term is post-post-post-post-punk but that sounds stupid. You're both right.

That said, The Raincoats, definitely.
_________________
http://jonnyleather.com

Norman Bates

Gender: Male

Age: 52

Location: Paris, France

ppnw wrote:

The country of origin actually had nothing to do with anything, except that I colloquially call him "Frenchman" when I chat to him.

Fair enough. Why you brought it up was probably pure chance then.

(1) so where's the cut off for post punk, and would you call other '79 and '80 albums like The Wall and Back in Black post punk? '80s era U2 also would not have happened without punk. Do you begin to see how futile this criterion is?

The definition I gave fits your examples perfectly. "The Wall" would have happened without punk: it's not post-punk. Back In Black could have happened without punk (it's basically boogie/hard rock) - it's not post-punk. 80s era U2 is definitely post-punk, as I believe U2 wouldn't have been born without punk. I set the limit at about '84-'85, just like Simon Reynolds does. I invented nothing.

(2) I wish I could bring him back to explain
There is no need really, as I think I understand the point all right. AND, as I said unironically, it is valid. for instance, I wouldn't argue with Madonna bing post-punk, in any case no less than any early 80s mutant disco act.

Finally, as an english teacher, you should recognize the difference between childish and childlike.
I'm an English teacher. I never claimed I was a good one. And honestly : I don't know the difference (that's sincere). No need to make fun of me over that though.

I really have no reason to argue with you, but if you keep on insisting, I'm here.

So am I, pal ; so am I. If you want to argue that the likes of The Rapture, Bloc Party, Franz Ferdinand, LCD Soundsystem or whateve, are postpunk bands, you know where to find me.

Kool Keith Sweat

Norman Bates wrote:

I'm an English teacher. I never claimed I was a good one. And honestly : I don't know the difference (that's sincere). No need to make fun of me over that though.

Sorry, I was getting a bit hostile there. Childish more or less means acting on the ego (negative), while childlike more references the joys of a child's mind, like finding love in the little things (positive); puerile more or less means childish.

Norman Bates wrote:

The definition I gave fits your examples perfectly. "The Wall" would have happened without punk: it's not post-punk. Back In Black could have happened without punk (it's basically boogie/hard rock) - it's not post-punk. 80s era U2 is definitely post-punk, as I believe U2 wouldn't have been born without punk. I set the limit at about '84-'85, just like Simon Reynolds does. I invented nothing.

Fair enough. I simply suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not a fan of artistic distinction on decadal (or really any temporal) timescales (you might be able to draw a definite distinction between Delacroix and Matisse/Picasso maybe, but once you add Cezanne it becomes blurry, at least without critics somewhat erroneous divisions upon which we base most all genres). And I believe nothing would happen without anything that came before it (whether as a construction or as a deconstruction). Ultimately, I'm simply yearning for a satisfactory definition of the subgenre post punk. As I've mentioned in my previous account, most philosophers of music draw the lines classical/jazz/rock and even those are blurry. Anyways, I believe if The Soft Moon has recorded in the late 70s/early 80s then you would be fine calling them post punk, which is strange to me.

All this being said, it's strange to me that you're attacking the legibility of a group that has already passed the tournament's legibility test, rather than promoting your own group (albeit they are winning and likely should).

19loveless91

mag. druž. inf

If post-punk meant only artists and records that were made in response to punk, without caring about how they sounded, then I would see the point. But the term post-punk isn't just that, it also encompasses certain stylistic and aesthetic characteristics. That's why, despite the term "post-punk" (as something that happened "after punk") I don't see why it should be limited to a certain era when you have all these bands that basically follow the same guidelines. Sure, they're revivalists, or "neo-", but same genre nonetheless. You might argue that it goes against the literal definition of the term, but you know how genres are. Post-rock, shoegaze, new wave (the sheer variety of the bands that fell under this umbrella term), etc. It's hard to give a satisfactory definition as to what they mean and be specific about what music they describe.

drakonium

coucou

Location: More than one

I'm really confused by the discussion going on. I though post-punk was a genre defined by much more than just "the thing that hapened after punk". Bands classified as "post-punk" clearly share sonic elements, they have common aesthetics, they're not just "bands who played music after punk". Joy Division and Wire are not random bands which played random music after punk, they have many similarities, which bring them to be put inside this post-punk category. And if they DO share common points, then any band playing at any time WITH those elements could be called post-punk. Bands like The Horrors or Interpol clearly fall into this category, and artists like Madonna and Jay-Z clearly don't.

Norman Bates

Gender: Male

Age: 52

Location: Paris, France

drakonium wrote:

And if they DO share common points, then any band playing at any time WITH those elements could be called post-punk.

I disagree (which is not important and totally pointless, I know). Bands like The Horrors or Interpol are not post-punk bands, as they don't derive their inspiration and/or ethics and/or sounds from punk, but from post-punk. They are inspired by post-punk, obviously, but have no link whatsoever with punk rock. Post-punk bands did. It's stupid arguing on my part I'm sure, but that's the way I feel about it - it doesn't matter much really, but somehow I feel strongly about this and think it changes a lot of things. But whatever. I'll probably just have to moan solitarily on this end of the Net when three 00's+ bands reach the semis with Joy Division... Nothing too important, guys, let's keep on keeping on.

drakonium

coucou

Location: More than one

Norman Bates wrote:

I disagree (which is not important and totally pointless, I know). Bands like The Horrors or Interpol are not post-punk bands, as they don't derive their inspiration and/or ethics and/or sounds from punk, but from post-punk. They are inspired by post-punk, obviously, but have no link whatsoever with punk rock. Post-punk bands did. It's stupid arguing on my part I'm sure, but that's the way I feel about it - it doesn't matter much really, but somehow I feel strongly about this and think it changes a lot of things. But whatever. I'll probably just have to moan solitarily on this end of the Net when three 00's+ bands reach the semis with Joy Division... Nothing too important, guys, let's keep on keeping on.

OK, I just wanted to know what you thought about it. I still disagree with your point, but I had actually never seen things this way, and I'm glad you had that argument with Purple. Thanks Smile

videoheadcleaner

formerly Harkan

Gender: Male

Age: 40

The rain falls softly on the defeated.

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