How could ____ be ranked higher than ____! - Music

RockyRaccoon

Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?

Gender: Male

Age: 35

Location: Maryland

Moderator

AfterHours wrote:

RockyRaccoon wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

until you really delve into Classical (if you do) you are severely underestimating how many staggering masterpieces Classical music has, usually years/decades in advance of such in Rock. I would say that it is highly unlikely that OK Computer would remain in your top 100, let alone top 5, if you assimilated the history of Classical music. From Beethoven's late period works to Schubert's masterpieces, to Brahms' masterpieces, to Mahler's Symphonies, to Messaien's, Ligeti's, Shostakovich, Arvo Part's and Schnittke's works, there are far more incredible masterpieces that address similar (but much more resonant and impinging) states of emotional/spiritual isolation/alienation (and alike/accompanying emotions/concepts).

I've delved very deeply into all the pieces you've mentioned (and into classical music in general) and OK Computer is still in my top 100. It's not like everyone would have classical music in their top 100 if they just gave it a chance, it just doesn't click with everyone.

Caveat: I love classical music.

Right on. Out of curiosity, what are the various works I am referring to and what are the key elements that you got out of them?

I'm sorry, are you quizzing me or saying you don't believe me? Because either is a pretty dick thing to do.

But I'll indulge

Beethoven - I've always said it's the odd-numbered symphonies that are his best. Obviously we all know five and nine, which are masterpieces, but I've also always been a fan of 7 and of his pastoral.

Schubert - Winterreise is great, as is Der Erlkonig and Licht und Liebe

Mahler - obviously Titan is great, but I've always said that "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" is one of the most tragically beautiful pieces of music ever written.

Arvo Part - I've relatively recently gotten into him, Tabula Rasa was quite an impressive minimalist piece that really taught me the value of a note

Shostakovich - if I had to pick a favorite, probably String Quartet No. 3? Maybe No. 9? Tough call.

Anyways, I've indulged in what seems to be a classical dick-measuring contest enough as it is, if you're really all that interested in my taste in classical music, I have a chart (albeit it hasn't been updated in quite some time).
_________________
Progressive Rock

Early Psychedelic Rock

Live Albums

AfterHours

Gender: Male

Location: The Zone

[quote="RockyRaccoon"]

AfterHours wrote:

RockyRaccoon wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

until you really delve into Classical (if you do) you are severely underestimating how many staggering masterpieces Classical music has, usually years/decades in advance of such in Rock. I would say that it is highly unlikely that OK Computer would remain in your top 100, let alone top 5, if you assimilated the history of Classical music. From Beethoven's late period works to Schubert's masterpieces, to Brahms' masterpieces, to Mahler's Symphonies, to Messaien's, Ligeti's, Shostakovich, Arvo Part's and Schnittke's works, there are far more incredible masterpieces that address similar (but much more resonant and impinging) states of emotional/spiritual isolation/alienation (and alike/accompanying emotions/concepts).

I've delved very deeply into all the pieces you've mentioned (and into classical music in general) and OK Computer is still in my top 100. It's not like everyone would have classical music in their top 100 if they just gave it a chance, it just doesn't click with everyone.

Caveat: I love classical music.

Right on. Out of curiosity, what are the various works I am referring to and what are the key elements that you got out of them?

RockyRaccoon wrote:

I'm sorry, are you quizzing me or saying you don't believe me? Because either is a pretty dick thing to do.

But I'll indulge

Beethoven - I've always said it's the odd-numbered symphonies that are his best. Obviously we all know five and nine, which are masterpieces, but I've also always been a fan of 7 and of his pastoral.

Schubert - Winterreise is great, as is Der Erlkonig and Licht und Liebe

Mahler - obviously Titan is great, but I've always said that "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" is one of the most tragically beautiful pieces of music ever written.

Arvo Part - I've relatively recently gotten into him, Tabula Rasa was quite an impressive minimalist piece that really taught me the value of a note

Shostakovich - if I had to pick a favorite, probably String Quartet No. 3? Maybe No. 9? Tough call.

Anyways, I've indulged in what seems to be a classical dick-measuring contest enough as it is, if you're really all that interested in my taste in classical music, I have a chart (albeit it hasn't been updated in quite some time).

You mentioned that you've delved deeply into the works I was referring to but I did not specify much about which works, so yes I did want to see if what you were saying was relevant to what I was saying.
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

RockyRaccoon

Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?

Gender: Male

Age: 35

Location: Maryland

Moderator

AfterHours wrote:

RockyRaccoon wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

[quote="RockyRaccoon "]

AfterHours wrote:

until you really delve into Classical (if you do) you are severely underestimating how many staggering masterpieces Classical music has, usually years/decades in advance of such in Rock. I would say that it is highly unlikely that OK Computer would remain in your top 100, let alone top 5, if you assimilated the history of Classical music. From Beethoven's late period works to Schubert's masterpieces, to Brahms' masterpieces, to Mahler's Symphonies, to Messaien's, Ligeti's, Shostakovich, Arvo Part's and Schnittke's works, there are far more incredible masterpieces that address similar (but much more resonant and impinging) states of emotional/spiritual isolation/alienation (and alike/accompanying emotions/concepts).

I've delved very deeply into all the pieces you've mentioned (and into classical music in general) and OK Computer is still in my top 100. It's not like everyone would have classical music in their top 100 if they just gave it a chance, it just doesn't click with everyone.

Caveat: I love classical music.

Right on. Out of curiosity, what are the various works I am referring to and what are the key elements that you got out of them?

RockyRaccoon wrote:

I'm sorry, are you quizzing me or saying you don't believe me? Because either is a pretty dick thing to do.

But I'll indulge

Beethoven - I've always said it's the odd-numbered symphonies that are his best. Obviously we all know five and nine, which are masterpieces, but I've also always been a fan of 7 and of his pastoral.

Schubert - Winterreise is great, as is Der Erlkonig and Licht und Liebe

Mahler - obviously Titan is great, but I've always said that "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" is one of the most tragically beautiful pieces of music ever written.

Arvo Part - I've relatively recently gotten into him, Tabula Rasa was quite an impressive minimalist piece that really taught me the value of a note

Shostakovich - if I had to pick a favorite, probably String Quartet No. 3? Maybe No. 9? Tough call.

Anyways, I've indulged in what seems to be a classical dick-measuring contest enough as it is, if you're really all that interested in my taste in classical music, I have a chart (albeit it hasn't been updated in quite some time).

You mentioned that you've delved deeply into the works I was referring to but I did not specify much about which works, so yes I did want to see if what you were saying was relevant to what I was saying.

I'll rephrase then: I've delved deeply into the *composers* that you have referred to and still have OK Computer in my top-100.

Music's all subjective dude, it's not like classical music is inherently better than anything else, as no form of art if inherently better than any other form.
_________________
Progressive Rock

Early Psychedelic Rock

Live Albums

AfterHours

Gender: Male

Location: The Zone

[quote="RockyRaccoon"]

AfterHours wrote:

RockyRaccoon wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

RockyRaccoon wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

until you really delve into Classical (if you do) you are severely underestimating how many staggering masterpieces Classical music has, usually years/decades in advance of such in Rock. I would say that it is highly unlikely that OK Computer would remain in your top 100, let alone top 5, if you assimilated the history of Classical music. From Beethoven's late period works to Schubert's masterpieces, to Brahms' masterpieces, to Mahler's Symphonies, to Messaien's, Ligeti's, Shostakovich, Arvo Part's and Schnittke's works, there are far more incredible masterpieces that address similar (but much more resonant and impinging) states of emotional/spiritual isolation/alienation (and alike/accompanying emotions/concepts).

I've delved very deeply into all the pieces you've mentioned (and into classical music in general) and OK Computer is still in my top 100. It's not like everyone would have classical music in their top 100 if they just gave it a chance, it just doesn't click with everyone.

Caveat: I love classical music.

Right on. Out of curiosity, what are the various works I am referring to and what are the key elements that you got out of them?

RockyRaccoon wrote:

I'm sorry, are you quizzing me or saying you don't believe me? Because either is a pretty dick thing to do.

But I'll indulge

Beethoven - I've always said it's the odd-numbered symphonies that are his best. Obviously we all know five and nine, which are masterpieces, but I've also always been a fan of 7 and of his pastoral.

Schubert - Winterreise is great, as is Der Erlkonig and Licht und Liebe

Mahler - obviously Titan is great, but I've always said that "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" is one of the most tragically beautiful pieces of music ever written.

Arvo Part - I've relatively recently gotten into him, Tabula Rasa was quite an impressive minimalist piece that really taught me the value of a note

Shostakovich - if I had to pick a favorite, probably String Quartet No. 3? Maybe No. 9? Tough call.

Anyways, I've indulged in what seems to be a classical dick-measuring contest enough as it is, if you're really all that interested in my taste in classical music, I have a chart (albeit it hasn't been updated in quite some time).

You mentioned that you've delved deeply into the works I was referring to but I did not specify much about which works, so yes I did want to see if what you were saying was relevant to what I was saying.

I'll rephrase then: I've delved deeply into the *composers* that you have referred to and still have OK Computer in my top-100.

Music's all subjective dude, it's not like classical music is inherently better than anything else, as no form of art if inherently better than any other form.

Ok, well then what you're saying is perhaps partially relevant to my point. I don't think anyone was arguing that music wasn't subjective. Dude. (Is this The Big Lebowski?). The basis of my (supposedly) controversial statement was that one's subjective view of what are the greatest works of music tends to change based largely on one's knowledge and experience with the music works across the history of the form. And that the BEA overall chart would very likely be much different if more of its contributors (which from my experience, appears to be the minority) assimilated many of the most seminal works across the history of Rock, Jazz and Classical (all genres, or at least most of them).
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

RockyRaccoon

Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?

Gender: Male

Age: 35

Location: Maryland

Moderator

AfterHours wrote:

Ok, well then what you're saying is perhaps partially relevant to my point. I don't think anyone was arguing that music wasn't subjective. Dude. (Is this The Big Lebowski?). The basis of my (supposedly) controversial statement was that one's subjective view of what are the greatest works of music tends to change based largely on one's knowledge and experience with the music works across the history of the form. And that the BEA overall chart would very likely be much different if more of its contributors (which from my experience, appears to be the minority) assimilated many of the most seminal works across the history of Rock, Jazz and Classical (all genres, or at least most of them).

So essentially what you're saying is that people's view of what the greatest music of all time is changes as they listen to more music? Obviously.

And perhaps the overall chart would look different if more people delved deeper into every genre, but 1. There's no way to know that many of them already haven't (our forum here is an exceptionally small sample size) and 2. There's no way to know that the chart would even change that much if that happened.

My issue is the tone (whether intentional or not, and I'm assuming it was unintentional) of what you were saying was very elitist, like it was saying "you poor uneducated fool you just don't understand."

Again, I'm not saying you were doing that intentionally (such are the difficulties of communicating via text) but it came off that way, and BEA has had problems in the past of seeming to be a very exclusive community of a bunch of elitists uninterested in speaking to the common masses, which is an image I'd personally like to avoid.
_________________
Progressive Rock

Early Psychedelic Rock

Live Albums

AfterHours

Gender: Male

Location: The Zone

[quote="RockyRaccoon"]

AfterHours wrote:

Ok, well then what you're saying is perhaps partially relevant to my point. I don't think anyone was arguing that music wasn't subjective. Dude. (Is this The Big Lebowski?). The basis of my (supposedly) controversial statement was that one's subjective view of what are the greatest works of music tends to change based largely on one's knowledge and experience with the music works across the history of the form. And that the BEA overall chart would very likely be much different if more of its contributors (which from my experience, appears to be the minority) assimilated many of the most seminal works across the history of Rock, Jazz and Classical (all genres, or at least most of them).

RockyRaccoon wrote:

So essentially what you're saying is that people's view of what the greatest music of all time is changes as they listen to more music? Obviously.

Exactly, it was not intended to be earth-shattering. It was simply a statement posing an educated guess at the fundamental reason this thread exists in the first place.

RockyRaccoon wrote:

And perhaps the overall chart would look different if more people delved deeper into every genre, but 1. There's no way to know that many of them already haven't (our forum here is an exceptionally small sample size) and 2. There's no way to know that the chart would even change that much if that happened.

I made an educated guess based on the hundreds, if not thousands, of serious music listeners I've discussed music with over the past 20 years, and that this turned out to be true in about 90% of cases. This was covered earlier in the thread but you probably missed it.

RockyRaccoon wrote:

My issue is the tone (whether intentional or not, and I'm assuming it was unintentional) of what you were saying was very elitist, like it was saying "you poor uneducated fool you just don't understand."

Again, I'm not saying you were doing that intentionally (such are the difficulties of communicating via text) but it came off that way, and BEA has had problems in the past of seeming to be a very exclusive community of a bunch of elitists uninterested in speaking to the common masses, which is an image I'd personally like to avoid.

This is being "read into" much more than it is actually there. The actual tone (the majority of the time) is that I am simply making suggestions, posing statements to be discussed. I have usually thought through the statement/suggestion beforehand and make it with a good degree of certainty. And I do have a lot of experience with Classical, Jazz, Rock, Film and Paintings, having thoroughly assimilated a great deal of their histories so of course this plays into my certainty. In addition, over the last couple decades I've discussed music/art with hundreds/thousands of others and drawn various conclusions/likelihoods based on those discussions. I have also gone through both sides of the argument for myself, where earlier on I felt the likes of The Beatles/Radiohead were the best ever/among the best ever -- and I wasn't "wrong". That was very true to me at that time, with the degree of Rock history I'd assimilated up to that point (and it wouldn't be "wrong" if I still felt this way, but it would be against the odds and surprising, based on what I've observed/discussed over the years). So I am making the statements/suggestions from that combined vantage point, which I think is one that is fairly "qualified" (for lack of a better word) to do so.

If an argument is posed, then yes, my tone can turn argumentative and I may challenge the other person, but I assume the person is prepared for this if they have decided to argue/challenge one of my statements/suggestions. This is not always the case, but for example with sethmadsen, the discussion was completely different because he was so prepared and took time to look at and discuss the various points I posed.

Plus there is the issue of "text" not always translating perfectly as to tone of voice/intent, which you mentioned.

In the end, it is not usually surprising to me that a subject as important and close to people as art/music could generate some hostility or push back. I've also learned it is much more a phenomena of the internet as the same discussions have frequently been completely different for me in person.
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

CA Dreamin

Gender: Male

Location: LA

AfterHours wrote:

Ok, well then what you're saying is perhaps partially relevant to my point. I don't think anyone was arguing that music wasn't subjective. Dude. (Is this The Big Lebowski?). The basis of my (supposedly) controversial statement was that one's subjective view of what are the greatest works of music tends to change based largely on one's knowledge and experience with the music works across the history of the form. And that the BEA overall chart would very likely be much different if more of its contributors (which from my experience, appears to be the minority) assimilated many of the most seminal works across the history of Rock, Jazz and Classical (all genres, or at least most of them).

AfterHours wrote:

Exactly, it was not intended to be earth-shattering. It was simply a statement posing an educated guess at the fundamental reason this thread exists in the first place.

This thread exists because many of us feel there are too many highly-ranked albums from great artists. They're albums I like to call 'overrated by association.' We especially see this in the heavy hitters like the aforementioned Beatles and Radiohead, who have a combined 16 albums in the overall Top 250. Yeah that's a bit much. Why are Let it Be and A Moon Shaped Pool so high? They're nothing special, except for the artists attached to them.

I would love to see a shakeup in the overall chart, which I don't think is possible without rule changes. I agree the chart would change if every user was active and also actively pursuing more music. However, my educated guess is that isn't the case. Oh well.
_________________
on such a winter's day

Last edited by CA Dreamin on 06/25/2017 01:17; edited 1 time in total

Daydreamer

Yes overrated by association is a good term, I agree some artist have way to much high ranked albums. But then again, no good album should ever be punished or excluded just because the artists already has some great albums on the charts.
_________________
All time

2000's
1990's
1980's
1970's
1960's

bobbyb5

Gender: Male

Location: New York

Its easy to see why about 90% of the top ranked albums are overrated. Because too many people prefer pleasureless music over music that's pleasurable. They think if an album gives u pleasure, there must be something wrong with it. That's why the top 100 is overloaded with so much sad sack, so-called "serious,meaningful" music. As if the highest value an album could have is how much pain and suffering the artist is going through. Or something....