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RockyRaccoon
Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?
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  • Posted: 03/02/2015 15:05
  • Post subject: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music
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POINT OF DISCUSSION

This is Point of Discussion, a thread for people to discuss issues and topics related to music in a thoughtful and productive way. The goal of this is to make you think, to make you take a look at what you believe, why you believe it, and what others believe. Good discussion is the key to any society, and this is a place where, hopefully, that can be fostered. If you would like a certain topic to be discussed or question to be posed, PM me and I'll toss it in when I can.

All of that being said, there are a few guidelines.

The Guidelines:

    1. Don't be a dick - it's fairly simple, just be civil. Say what you want, believe what you want to believe, that's fine, just don't be a dick about it.
    2. All opinions are welcome - no matter how unpopular you may think your opinion is (or how unpopular it eventually proves to be), post it. It's welcome. Just be prepared to defend that opinion if it's challenged.
    3. There are no wrong opinions - like, it's literally impossible. These are opinions, so no matter how strongly you feel about it, it's neither right nor wrong, it's just an opinion, so keep that in mind.
    4. The conversation can go anywhere - even if the discussion goes off of the original topic, that's fine. All kinds of tangents are possible, just try to keep it semi-relevant.




The Topic:
Misogyny in the lyrics of music is a major issue that's been discussed at length for a long time. The issue is especially prevalent in hip-hop, though it's not exclusively in hip-hop, as it's very prevalent in many genres, including rock music (e.g. Faces' "Stay With Me"). What do you think of the issue? Do you believe it's that much of an issue? Is it the fault of the public for financially supporting the music that has this issue, or is it the fault of the industry for releasing the music in the first place? Or both? In "Hip Hop: Beyond Beats and Rhymes", there was an interview with a rapper, and I forget who it was, maybe Busta Rhymes, and when posed with that question, he responded by saying something to the effect of "Look, if people had that much of a problem with it, Snoop Dogg would be out of a job" implying that, because he makes millions, the public doesn't have an issue with his (or others) music. Do you agree?
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babyBlueSedan
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  • Posted: 03/02/2015 16:02
  • Post subject: Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music
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To be honest, I'm kind of a hypocrite about this. There are certain songs (Bitches Ain't Shit comes to mind) that I can't stand listening to because of the overt misogyny. There are other songs and albums though, which I enjoy much more than The Chronic, where I just kind of ignore the misogyny because I enjoy listening to the music too much. In most cases I think it can be chalked up to songwriters just writing about what they want to write about and not intentionally trying to be misogynic, but it's still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And obviously it's something that I hope starts to disappear, even though men will continue writing music for a long time and it's inevitable masculine songs that degrade women will still be written. As we saw with Blurred Lines though, I think the public's tolerance for it is waning.

This also isn't something limited to rap - ever heard AC/DC's Givin The Dog A Bone? Just as immature and unnecessary as Bitches Ain't Shit. And then there was that time Axl Rose sang "Turn around bitch I've got a use for you. Besides, you ain't got nothing better to do, and I'm bored." Granted these examples are taken from the very pinnacle of sweaty, masculine rock, but I think every genre has problems like this. The Beatles had Run For Your Life, the Stones had Under My Thumb. Hip hop is just more explicit because of the type of storytelling it uses. Music just reflects the current state of society, and it's no secret that, historically, society hasn't been entirely inviting to women. (As a side note, the same can be sad about homophobia - listen to the Police's On Any Other Day and you'll see this wasn't a music trope hip hop created).

RockyRaccoon wrote:
"Look, if people had that much of a problem with it, Snoop Dogg would be out of a job" implying that, because he makes millions, the public doesn't have an issue with his (or others) music.


Like I mentioned above, I don't think this means the public condones misogyny as much as it means people like Snoop Dogg and his style of rapping. I expect I'm not the only one who can't stop listening to the music they enjoy even if it doesn't agree with their personal views. Music is also nice because it's kind of a private form of entertainment - you can listen to Doggystyle and secretly enjoy it without anyone knowing. Doesn't mean you're sexist necessarily, just means you like Doggystyle.
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RockyRaccoon
Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?
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  • Posted: 03/02/2015 16:07
  • Post subject: Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music
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babyBlueSedan wrote:

Like I mentioned above, I don't think this means the public condones misogyny as much as it means people like Snoop Dogg and his style of rapping. I expect I'm not the only one who can't stop listening to the music they enjoy even if it doesn't agree with their personal views. Music is also nice because it's kind of a private form of entertainment - you can listen to Doggystyle and secretly enjoy it without anyone knowing. Doesn't mean you're sexist necessarily, just means you like Doggystyle.


I think this is an important point, and it raises a question: does that speak to the point the rapper (for the sake of conversation, let's say it was Busta Rhymes) had? That obviously the misogyny isn't that big of a deal, otherwise people wouldn't be buying Snoop's music. I feel like he's saying that, while misogyny might be a problem in hip-hop, it's apparently not a big enough problem to keep people from buying the music. The enjoyment of the music seems to outweigh the moral dissonance between the listener and musician.
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RockyRaccoon
Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?
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  • Posted: 03/02/2015 16:16
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Also, I think this is an interesting quote from a study about misogyny in hip-hop:

Quote:
It is important to emphasize that, like other music genres, rap is more varied in its content than is often recognized. For instance, this music has served as a consciousness-raising, politically progressive, liberating form of popular culture. Therefore, we want to emphasize that misogyny does not characterize rap music as a whole. This is an important finding in itself. A majority of songs in our sample do not degrade women, and there are rappers who actively challenge rap’s misogynistic messages and endorse a more egalitarian form of masculinity. At the same time, a sizeable segment (more than one-fifth) of this genre does contain such messages, and our analysis indicates that these messages are rather extreme. Although women are presented as subordinate to men in a majority of rock and country songs as noted earlier, rap stands out for the intensity and graphic nature of its lyrical objectification, exploitation, and victimization of women. Other genres, in the aggregate, make more subtle allusions to gender inequality or present more muted criticisms of women. Furthermore, it is important to consider what themes are largely absent in rap lyrics. Rare are lyrics that describe women as independent, educated, professional, caring, and trustworthy. Although the majority of songs in the original sample did not contain misogynistic lyrics, even these songs failed to present women in a favorable light. In other words, absence of misogyny does not equate with a positive representation of women.

Given its sources, we argue that changing the content of this music—specifically with respect to the portrayal of women—requires in part changing the conditions under which it is created, conditions that lie at the intersection of three important forces: Socioeconomic disadvantage and associated gender relations in local communities, the material interests of the record industry, and the larger cultural objectification of women and associated norms of hegemonic masculinity.


Especially that last paragraph, which seems to conclude that misogyny in hip-hop (or, one could extrapolate this to any form of music) is symptomatic of the society in which the musician grew up in, seemingly relieving the musician of the entire blame for their lyrics.
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babyBlueSedan
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  • Posted: 03/02/2015 16:16
  • Post subject: Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music
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RockyRaccoon wrote:
I think this is an important point, and it raises a question: does that speak to the point the rapper (for the sake of conversation, let's say it was Busta Rhymes) had? That obviously the misogyny isn't that big of a deal, otherwise people wouldn't be buying Snoop's music. I feel like he's saying that, while misogyny might be a problem in hip-hop, it's apparently not a big enough problem to keep people from buying the music. The enjoyment of the music seems to outweigh the moral dissonance between the listener and musician.


I think, yes, it does imply that in general society will ignore misogyny in order to listen to music. Which could be perceived as a problem - even if you're not personally sexist it's worrisome that an issue as prevalent and important in our society is ignored so that we don't have to feel guilty for listening to music. I don't know what maybe-Busta-Rhymes's actual views on the issue are, but his response does seem to be skirting the question (possibly because rappers from his era feel like they will lose credibility if they speak out against this). For many it's a type of doublethink - we know we're not sexist and don't feel guilty listening to it. But unfortunately for every listener like that there probably is someone else who legitimately enjoys that type of message.
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  • Posted: 03/02/2015 16:23
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Remember that before hip hop was a huge thing, Tipper Gore went after rock music for corrupting our youth. The result was that the smart people of rock (Dee Snider, Frank Zappa, etc.) stood up for the musicians and made her look like a fool. Gore got warning labels for albums, which turned out to be a great selling point for music and a huge win for the artists...what rebellious 16 year old is going to not buy an album because it has a parental warning on it?

So...who is going to take it upon themselves to go after the music industry again for lyrical content? Artists won huge the last time around. Besides...people only want to fight and protest what's immediately a threat to them. And in 2015, we have way too many really pressing issues. Like the names of our sports teams, and whether the wifebeaters of the NFL should get millions of dollars for signing with the Cowboys or the Patriots.

Going after lyrics is a battle that people know they cannot win, so they dismiss music as unimportant enough to warrant a fight. People condone it because people know they can't defeat it.
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RockyRaccoon
Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?
Gender: Male

Age: 34

Location: Maryland
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  • Posted: 03/02/2015 16:24
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Also, a quote from Brother Marquis from 2 Live Crew:

Quote:
‘‘I’m degrading [women] to try to get me some money....And besides, you let me do that. You got pimps out here who are making you sell your body. Just let me talk about you for a little while...and make me a little money’


The logic being, he's just talking about something that already exists, and there's no harm in that. Thoughts?
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Norman Bates
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  • Posted: 03/02/2015 16:32
  • Post subject: Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music
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RockyRaccoon wrote:

Misogyny in the lyrics of music is a major issue

The problem is not "mysogyny in music", it's mysogyny. Music is not more mysoginist than society as a whole.

RockyRaccoon wrote:

The issue is especially prevalent in hip-hop

It's not. As you point out later on, it's prevalent as a whole.

RockyRaccoon wrote:

What do you think of the issue?

I do not feel that this s a musical point of discussion.

RockyRaccoon wrote:

Do you believe it's that much of an issue?

Very much so, but not especially in music.

RockyRaccoon wrote:

Is it the fault of the public for financially supporting the music that has this issue, or is it the fault of the industry for releasing the music in the first place? Or both?


I am no historian. I would perhaps venture that the fault lies within the patriarchal system we've been living in for centuries?
glitter-bubbles
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  • Posted: 03/02/2015 16:48
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I found this, and I think its interesting:

http://www.studentpulse.com/articles/79...tic-lyrics

It says:

Quote:
Survey results indicate a positive correlation between misogynous thinking and rap/hip-hop consumption


Do I think misogyny in music is an issue? Yes, but I also agree with Norman Bates that the real issue is misogyny in general. It is the fault of the public, the artists, and the industry. Everyone plays a part in this, but not usually intentionally, IMO. As someone else said, listening to misogynist music doesn't necessarily mean you're a misogynist, but just that you enjoy the music. As a woman though, I appreciate any artist, producer, and fan that will stands up to it.

A side note, there is a lot of internalized misogyny in music made by women as well - which doesn't help the situation.
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  • Posted: 03/02/2015 16:53
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Quote:
Survey results indicate a positive correlation between misogynous thinking and rap/hip-hop consumption


I haven't taken any surveys, but most of my friends are feminists who also consume a fair amount of hip-hop.
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