Is there some War on Drugs cabal invading BEA or something? I don't think a single other website/publication has it as #1 for the year, and the forum regulars seem to disagree the least on Benji or maybe Pinata.
I guess you missed the parade of magazines with it at #1. It topped a ton of year end lists. It's not exactly like it came out of nowhere. it's been hovering just under Benji and Piñata all year _________________ http://jonnyleather.com
Erm there's definitely been a backlash on the forums to Benji in the last few months. As for Piñata, I think there's just a growing group of forum regulars that are getting tired of it. Lost In The Dream's points seem to be represented mostly from people that aren't forum regulars.
I just can't take Benji seriously. Koz's melodies are always pretty, but his treatment of death sounds more fetishistic than insightful to me. IMO, he's become a parody of himself (it's even ruining some of his earlier stuff for me).
Pinata is good, but mostly not my style. Lost in the Dream long since passed from my radar.
Are there forum-wide backlashes against these albums? All will be revealed next month (and keep sending in votes, plz).
Last edited by sp4cetiger on 01/14/2015 21:38; edited 1 time in total
I just can't take Benji seriously. Koz's melodies are always pretty, but his treatment of death sounds more fetishistic than insightful to me. IMO, he's become a parody of himself (it's even ruining some of his earlier stuff for me).
Hmmm, interesting point. I never thought about Benji in that light. Personally, I always saw it as more childish observations. Thematically, the record struck me like Kozelek doesn't have a handle on the concept of loss and the album serves as an almost selfish examination of the losses that surround him in order to come to terms with the pain. You're right, it's not necessarily insightful but I find it interesting the way it's laid out.
Hmmm, interesting point. I never thought about Benji in that light. Personally, I always saw it as more childish observations. Thematically, the record struck me like Kozelek doesn't have a handle on the concept of loss and the album serves as an almost selfish examination of the losses that surround him in order to come to terms with the pain. You're right, it's not necessarily insightful but I find it interesting the way it's laid out.
I think that's the way he meant it to be interpreted. but it's the "coming to terms" part that I find hard to take seriously, at least in Kozelek's case.
When a death touches our lives, I think there is a tendency to regress a bit. A year ago, my aunt (a mother of five) killed herself and I had many "childish" thoughts like the ones Kozelek details in his songs. However, it was a very painful experience. While I can easily imagine writing songs to help myself cope with the pain, I can't fathom having to relive that experience and those thoughts over and over again in stage performances. In order to do that, I'd either have to detach myself from it or be incredibly masochistic.
After hearing Benji, and especially after the whole War on Drugs thing, I began to see Kozelek less as someone who's in touch with his emotions and more as someone who exploits the emotions of others. While I can understand the urge to indulge in sadness from time to time, his take on "sadcore" began to look like a caricature of the genre's earlier innovations. I still enjoy his Red House Painters stuff, but even then it's like listening to U2's early albums, where I hear whispers of what would come later.
I think that's the way he meant it to be interpreted. but it's the "coming to terms" part that I find hard to take seriously, at least in Kozelek's case.
When a death touches our lives, I think there is a tendency to regress a bit. A year ago, my aunt (a mother of five) killed herself and I had many "childish" thoughts like the ones Kozelek details in his songs. However, it was a very painful experience. While I can easily imagine writing songs to help myself cope with the pain, I can't fathom having to relive that experience and those thoughts over and over again in stage performances. In order to do that, I'd either have to detach myself from it or be incredibly masochistic.
After hearing Benji, and especially after the whole War on Drugs thing, I began to see Kozelek less as someone who's in touch with his emotions and more as someone who exploits the emotions of others. While I can understand the urge to indulge in sadness from time to time, his take on "sadcore" began to look like a caricature of the genre's earlier innovations. I still enjoy his Red House Painters stuff, but even then it's like listening to U2's early albums, where I hear whispers of what would come later.
I agree with you and Cuba, and these are my problems with Benji. It seems like he only cares about how the deaths impact him. The embarrassing shit like "Dogs", "Richard Ramirez" and "Ben's My Friend" just bring it down further too. Going back to great albums like the first two RHP albums and Ghosts of the Great Highway now with Kozelek acting like an insufferable curmudgeon in concert just make them seem like their sadness is feigned and exploitative too. I don't know if he's always been like this or if it's just recently, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was always a cunt feigning emotions and we all fell for it.
meccaleccaVoice of ReasonProfile The Land of Enchantment
I agree with you and Cuba, and these are my problems with Benji. It seems like he only cares about how the deaths impact him. The embarrassing shit like "Dogs", "Richard Ramirez" and "Ben's My Friend" just bring it down further too. Going back to great albums like the first two RHP albums and Ghosts of the Great Highway now with Kozelek acting like an insufferable curmudgeon in concert just make them seem like their sadness is feigned and exploitative too. I don't know if he's always been like this or if it's just recently, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was always a cunt feigning emotions and we all fell for it.
Wow. Suddenly the Koz backlash is very real.
As someone who's experienced an ungodly amount of tragic death in my life, I can't say that I hear anything exploitive or fetishizing death in Benji. For me, the album reads like a journal of a man trying to understand the world, and coming to terms with age and loss. And that often leads to talking about the topic constantly in order to work through it. In depression, we're often pretty selfish. Is Kozelek not supposed to think or express how someone else's death effects him?
I can definitely understand many criticisms of Kozelek, from his attitude towards fans to his name dropping of restaurant chains, but when I listen to "Carissa" I hear nothing but a man expressing himself honestly and coming to terms with the unpredictable and often unfair nature of death. _________________ http://jonnyleather.com
RockyRaccoonIs it solipsistic in here or is it just me?ModeratorProfile Maryland
As someone who's experienced an ungodly amount of tragic death in my life, I can't say that I hear anything exploitive or fetishizing death in Benji. For me, the album reads like a journal of a man trying to understand the world, and coming to terms with age and loss. And that often leads to talking about the topic constantly in order to work through it. In depression, we're often pretty selfish. Is Kozelek not supposed to think or express how someone else's death effects him?
I can definitely understand many criticisms of Kozelek, from his attitude towards fans to his name dropping of restaurant chains, but when I listen to "Carissa" I hear nothing but a man expressing himself honestly and coming to terms with the unpredictable and often unfair nature of death.
Pretty much my exact feelings when listening to "Benji" and I definitely hear it in "Carissa". It's pure honesty, blatant honesty. It's Kozelek saying "Look, you can't struggle through your life, fighting hard every day to get by, only to die in some stupid freak accident. Life shouldn't work like that, this shouldn't happen".
I lost a close friend of mine about eight years ago (it'll be eight years in two days) and I had similar thoughts. He was a great guy, only 32 with a son who was just barely a year old. One of the most genuinely kind people I had ever met. And then one day, while playing basketball (something he did every week), he had a heart attack and died almost immediately. Done. Just gone. When I heard about it, I had similar feelings. I was thinking "This can't happen, this shouldn't happen. Why would this happen? Life doesn't work like that, it's not supposed to work like that." But it did. Kozelek, especially in "Carissa", is dealing with the same stuff. He's asking the age-old "Why do bad things happen to good people" question, and the best he can come up with is "I don't fucking know". _________________ Progressive Rock
I think that's the way he meant it to be interpreted. but it's the "coming to terms" part that I find hard to take seriously, at least in Kozelek's case.
When a death touches our lives, I think there is a tendency to regress a bit. A year ago, my aunt (a mother of five) killed herself and I had many "childish" thoughts like the ones Kozelek details in his songs. However, it was a very painful experience. While I can easily imagine writing songs to help myself cope with the pain, I can't fathom having to relive that experience and those thoughts over and over again in stage performances. In order to do that, I'd either have to detach myself from it or be incredibly masochistic.
Wow... I never thought about it like that. Last year too my Godfather died due a freak hemorrhage out of the blue. We were very close and the loss of him sent me to pot emotionally for a few months and it's a pain that won't ever quite go away. While the thoughts delineated in Benji do show this, there is a certain amount of indulgence and masochism in using these emotions as part of a performance on a near nightly basis. It would be a very lonely and depreciating in some ways.
Quote:
After hearing Benji, and especially after the whole War on Drugs thing, I began to see Kozelek less as someone who's in touch with his emotions and more as someone who exploits the emotions of others.
I will say I'm not sure if the whole War on Drugs thing is real. The whole thing seems like a bit of PR stunt. It's definitely raised the profiles of both artists by quite a bit and Kozelek's behaviour in it has this very dry ironic humour that seems present in the stage banter I've seen of him.
WindowAbove wrote:
The embarrassing shit like "Dogs", "Richard Ramirez" and "Ben's My Friend" just bring it down further too.
Can't comment on the other two but there's a really interesting interview/conversation between Ben Gibbard and Kozelek from just before the release of April that I feel gives the song a more interesting and justifiable context. The attitude Kozelek has to Gibbard is this interesting mix of admiration, pride and envy that I feel reveals a lot about his relationships.
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meccalecca
WindowAbove
RockyRaccoon
