Not sure if everyone is aware of this (I was not), but there are two very different versions of this album...and thus, there are two different versions on BEA. One of them (the vinyl version) is in the BEA top 400. The CD version is not, although it's not far from the top 1000.
If you have this album in your charts, I would suggest that you check to make sure you have the right version. Because it does affect the overall charts. If enough people have the wrong version charted, then the album is not being ranked correctly. I did not have the right version.
I do find it odd that the LP version is ranked higher, as it is a full 25 minutes shorter than the CD version. I'm wondering if this may be causing the album to be ranked incorrectly? The CD version was added a full 13 years after the vinyl...so how many of those chart entries are wrong? Is there any way to really know where this album should be ranked? I'm guessing that there are MANY (like mine) charts showing the vinyl version that should be the CD version.
Thoughts _________________ I'm leaning on the threshold
Of her mystery
And crashing through the walls
Of dying history
I was also unaware of two versions of F# A# ∞. I've only listened to the CD version. It's pretty cool to learn something new.
My thoughts on this matter are consistent with what I've said in the past in the suggestions thread. If an album has different versions, with different tracklists, they should all be listed on one page. And they should simply be labeled accordingly. While the length and track titles are the two versions of F# A# ∞ differ, the names of the movements are consistent enough that they should not be listed as two separate albums here, imo. It would be a really cool upgrade to the site to see every albums' multiple tracklists all listed on the on same page. For one, it would make the site more informative. We could have all learned this interesting fact about F# A# ∞ years ago. Two, it would then encourage users to seek out alternate versions they were previously unaware of. I understand it would be a lot of work to implement such changes, but it would be worth it! I'm down to help 😎
It would be a really cool upgrade to the site to see every albums' multiple tracklists all listed on the on same page. For one, it would make the site more informative. We could have all learned this interesting fact about F# A# ∞ years ago. Two, it would then encourage users to seek out alternate versions they were previously unaware of. I understand it would be a lot of work to implement such changes, but it would be worth it! I'm down to help 8)
Agree, doing this would definitely improve/expand the site for all the reasons you've mentioned. The site became how it is mainly to simplify the ranking of albums (only having one version of an album makes this a lot easier) and selecting the original release for the site was the simplest way to allow data to be moderated consistently and avoid conflict over which version of an album should appear on the site. BEA would definitely benefit from having alternate versions listed, especially as sometimes the original release isn't the most well known version. It's quite a big task to add this to the site, but it's on the backlog to be added at some point.
I do find it odd that the LP version is ranked higher, as it is a full 25 minutes shorter than the CD version. I'm wondering if this may be causing the album to be ranked incorrectly? The CD version was added a full 13 years after the vinyl...so how many of those chart entries are wrong? Is there any way to really know where this album should be ranked? I'm guessing that there are MANY (like mine) charts showing the vinyl version that should be the CD version.
Thoughts
LP released in 1997 (added to BEA in 2008). CD version released in 1998 (added to BEA in 2021). 13 year gap. LP version is the older of the two albums (on the site) and has had more time to accumulate points (but artwork has swung between two versions in mod history). Probably some people that added the album between 2008 & 2021 may have meant to add the CD version to their charts.
We could PM everyone that added this album to a year/decade/overall chart between 2008 & 2021, but need to check the numbers involved (but might not set a good precedent as people don't like spam and don't want to be doing this with all other albums with a similar issue). Must be other ways of tackling this, so a bit of thinking needed.
EDIT: 365 charts between 2008 & 2021 contain the 1997 album - 154 overall charts, 121 decade charts & 90 year charts (will be slightly less using exact dates).
Last edited by albummaster on 09/15/2025 09:57; edited 1 time in total
II
workd my but just to not know what to name my rank
Age: 100
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As seen in the moderation history on 09/11/2021. AM has approved ForegroundNoise's album entry addition of the CD version as long as it is a re-recording.
However, if we compare between the two versions, we can identify that both the first tracks of each album: "Nervous, Sad, Poor..." from the LP and "The Dead Flag Blues" from the CD - have in fact the same four movements: "The Dead Flag Blues (Intro)", "Slow Moving Trains", "The Cowboy..." & "The Dead Flag Blues (Outro)" (re-titled as "(;outro)+ # '" on the CD) and II think they sound identical in both two album release versions, although the slight differences both first tracks of each version have are that the original LP has two more movements: "Drugs In Tokyo" which was transferred to the CD near the end of the second track "East Hastings" (and they seem to sound identical too), and an [Untitled] movement which features a banjo playing.
As for the LP's second track "Bleak, Uncertain, Beautiful...", seems like its movements were re-arranged on the CD for "East Hastings" and the third/last track "Providence". The identical movements are: " "...Nothing's Alrite in Our Life..." / Dead Flag Blues (Reprise)", "Kicking Horse on Brokenhill" & "String Loop Manufactured During Downpour...".
The differences are the new movements added for the CD: "Drugs In Tokyo" got extended as "Drugs In Tokyo/Black Helicopter" on the CD, the movements "Divorce&Fever…", "Dead Metheny…" & "J.L.H. Outro" are new additions, and while both "" and "" have the "The Sad Mafioso..." movement, which in both versions the first part sounds identical, the second part of "The Sad Mafioso..." on the LP sounds less climatic than the second part of "The Sad Mafioso..." on the CD, which sounds like a new composition.
You can all check the comparisons with the videos above.
Unless BEA includes alternate versions of album releases, then II believe the CD version should be deleted, since both versions have a lot identical parts. And considering the CD version has a rank score of 1,349, which as a result raises GY!BE's rank score, then we should probably make the non-original versions of album have a lowered rank score or no rank score at all, depending if the different versions of albums we would include have enough differences, like how the movements in both versions are re-arranged differently and the CD versions adds a few new movements.
As for users adding the "wrong" CD versions to their charts, in case we might consider deleting the CD version, we might have been lucky that the user interaction on BEA has been lowered, since the CD verison was added to only 57 charts since its entry addition on 09/11/2021, while the LP version is in 600 charts since 09/08/2011 (was in 555 charts since July 25th 2021 according to archive.org).
But if we really include alternate versions of releases, that would be really interesting, although we should think about it more in depth, since II think almost all of albums' different versions are that a newer verison includes at least one new track.
Last edited by II on 09/15/2025 20:21; edited 1 time in total
If we compare between the two versions, we can identify that both the first tracks of each album: "Nervous, Sad, Poor..." from the LP and "The Dead Flag Blues" from the CD - have in fact the same four movements :... and II think they sound identical in both two album release versions, although the slight differences both first tracks of each version have are that the original LP has two more movements: "Drugs In Tokyo" which was transferred to the CD near the end of the second track "East Hastings" (and they seem to sound identical too), and an [Untitled] movement which features a banjo playing.
As for the LP's second track "Bleak, Uncertain, Beautiful...", seems like its movements were re-arranged on the CD for "East Hastings" and the third/last track "Providence". The identical movements are: " "...Nothing's Alrite in Our Life..." / Dead Flag Blues (Reprise)", "Kicking Horse on Brokenhill" & "String Loop Manufactured During Downpour...".
The differences are the new movements added for the CD: "Drugs In Tokyo" got extended as "Drugs In Tokyo/Black Helicopter" on the CD, the movements "Divorce&Fever…", "Dead Metheny…" & "J.L.H. Outro" are new additions, and while both "" and "" have the "The Sad Mafioso..." movement, which in both versions the first part sounds identical, the second part of "The Sad Mafioso..." on the LP sounds less climatic than the second part of "The Sad Mafioso..." on the CD, which sounds like a new composition.
Interesting that this analysis differs with the mod history.
It's impossible for a single person to listen to every album on the site and perform an analysis, so the site relies on the combined eyes and ears of everybody here to do that instead. The current guidelines state "BEA only lists the original version of an album. Different versions of the same album (e.g. re-issues, re-releases etc) are not listed (this stops the site being flooded by multiple versions of the same release). However, in the rare cases that the releases are entirely distinct, and not derived from each other (i.e. not sharing any of the same tracks), each distinct album may be added separately." .
There's precedent here for some EPs which are listed first, and then become albums at a later date (and are not considered re-releases). However, that's not the case here. If the CD version of the album shares some of the same tracks, then it wouldn't meet the above criteria of a distinct release. However, if all of the tracks have been re-recorded/remixed that would make the releases entirely different. There are two different analyses presented here and in the mod history.
If the albums are deemed distinct, then we have the problem Romanelli highlighted of the 1998 release being under-represented. If the two albums are deemed the 'same' then the 1997 release would be listed by itself with all points credited to it.
BEA has its own guidelines, but for comparison Discogs, RYM and AllMusic treat the 1998 album as a reissue (listing the 1997 album in the Godspeed You! Black Emperor discography and not having a separate entry for the 1998 release).
It seems to me (opinion) that the only real way to resolve this would be to combine the two into one release. As two separate releases, there will, I believe, never be an accurate picture of where this album belongs on the overall chart. There may be other albums with this same issue...but I think that, because this one most definitely affects the top 500 of the overall chart, it should be resolved. Sending out mass emails or Pm's would help...but how many people have it on their charts who will never return to BEA? Probably quite a few. My guess is that more than just a few of the charts that the vinyl version appears on intended to be the CD version...but the CD version didn't exist on BEA until 2021. Which makes the ranking for this album very inaccurate.
Not only would the 1998 release be under represented, but also the 1997 release would surely be over represented. To me, combining the two would be the simplest and most accurate solution. _________________ I'm leaning on the threshold
Of her mystery
And crashing through the walls
Of dying history
It seems to me (opinion) that the only real way to resolve this would be to combine the two into one release. As two separate releases, there will, I believe, never be an accurate picture of where this album belongs on the overall chart. There may be other albums with this same issue...but I think that, because this one most definitely affects the top 500 of the overall chart, it should be resolved. Not only would the 1998 release be under represented, but also the 1997 release would surely be over represented. To me, combining the two would be the simplest and most accurate solution.
Agree, as well based on how other sites are not treating this as a separate release, a merge feels the right thing to do. (If there are other releases on BEA that need to be looked at, they are welcome to be flagged on the relevant admin pages and they can be reviewed).
II
workd my but just to not know what to name my rank
Age: 100
Location: Questionmarkland. You ask: "Where is that land?" There is no answer. Only a ?
Interesting that this analysis differs with the mod history.
It's impossible for a single person to listen to every album on the site and perform an analysis, so the site relies on the combined eyes and ears of everybody here to do that instead. The current guidelines state "BEA only lists the original version of an album. Different versions of the same album (e.g. re-issues, re-releases etc) are not listed (this stops the site being flooded by multiple versions of the same release). However, in the rare cases that the releases are entirely distinct, and not derived from each other (i.e. not sharing any of the same tracks), each distinct album may be added separately." .
There's precedent here for some EPs which are listed first, and then become albums at a later date (and are not considered re-releases). However, that's not the case here. If the CD version of the album shares some of the same tracks, then it wouldn't meet the above criteria of a distinct release. However, if all of the tracks have been re-recorded/remixed that would make the releases entirely different. There are two different analyses presented here and in the mod history.
If the albums are deemed distinct, then we have the problem Romanelli highlighted of the 1998 release being under-represented. If the two albums are deemed the 'same' then the 1997 release would be listed by itself with all points credited to it.
BEA has its own guidelines, but for comparison Discogs, RYM and AllMusic treat the 1998 album as a reissue (listing the 1997 album in the Godspeed You! Black Emperor discography and not having a separate entry for the 1998 release).
So based on my album versions differences which goes full in all details and your response, II understand that the CD version should remain on BEA, since except "The Sad Mafioso...", the whole album hasn't been re-recorded, but your addition of the condition "remixed" approves the CD version to be remained, since a remix is defined as "a piece of media which has been altered or contorted from its original state by adding, removing, or changing pieces of the item" (from Wikipedia), and considering movements were added, removed and replaced in tracks on the CD version, ithis version should indeed be remained.
Btw, II was wondering about the approval of "EPs which become albums later on" and II'm glad and thankful that you mentioned this, since e.g. there is that case of "Mix & Match" (EP) which later becomes "Max & Match" (LP) which fits the definition and II pondered its approval prior.
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