Separating the Art From the Artist. - Music

satiemaniac

I mean, just for the record, I wasn't making any assumptions, just trying to make my position crystal clear. I really like you, benpaco, and regret coming off as personally hostile, as that truly wasn't my intention. Especially on the Internet, I'm used to people defending pedophilia in various ways, because we are told that these need to be "rational, level-headed discussions." We're taught by Reddit downvotes and Huffington Post thinkpieces that sometimes there's a necessary centrism on what is legally and ethically rape. I've taken similar stances to yours in the past, and I think the best thing we can do for victims in the context of our interpersonal dialogues is to reinforce a strong stance against such acts and to educate others why those stances are necessary. Your head is in the right place, and I don't want to make you feel belittled or talked down to. If I've hurt your feelings, I'd really appreciate a private message so we can discuss it. Smile

And yeah, mecca, I suppose saying it's one of the most disgusting things I've heard was over the top, but at the same time, it is one of the more sickening revelations just based on the fact that David Bowie's music has accompanied me through road trips, heartbreak, finals weeks, walks in the park, nights where I had trouble sleeping, parties, dates, etc. Realizing that he was (is, since it seems he hasn't done anything to publicly acknowledge or rectify the situation) just another smarmy, sleazy rock dude hit deep. It definitely changes the landscape of his music for me, same as Woody Allen, though obviously the latter's pedophilia is more apparent in certain films themselves (the aforementioned Manhattan is a film I can't watch in good conscience given that the entire thing is animated by the same fantasies that would lead him to violate Dylan Farrow).

meccalecca

Voice of Reason

Gender: Male

Location: The Land of Enchantment

satiemaniac wrote:

same as Woody Allen, though obviously the latter's pedophilia is more apparent in certain films themselves (the aforementioned Manhattan is a film I can't watch in good conscience given that the entire thing is animated by the same fantasies that would lead him to violate Dylan Farrow).

This is when it's truly impossible to separate the art from the artist. When their work mirrors their personality flaws, it's impossible to overlook. In the same regard, if their work contradicts their personal problems/crimes, it has a similar effect (Cosby).

It's tough to see our heroes so tragically flawed and human. When it comes to sleazy men and pedophilia, it's an inescapable problem. In many cultures around the world, this is still acceptable every day behavior because of the extremely oppressive traditions. It's deeply saddening to know that women are still subjected to this with regularity.
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WindowAbove

Gender: Male

Age: 25

Location: Iowa

To satie, yes I'd agree with you for back then in general (though I nor you know what Maddox's knowledge of sex was at the time) as the education about sex was poor compared to today, but now a lot of people my age have a better knowledge about that stuff and like contraception etc. if Maddox was enjoying her relations with Bowie and Page, and she wasn't harmed or raped or anything, then I don't feel like that's as big of an issue than if they forced her into sex. I think at least Page is a shithead regardless (and from what I've heard Page did a lot more fucked up things than Bowie). And like how you mentioned that people are defending pedophiles in some areas, I think that there will be equal rights movements for adults sexually attracted to children in let's say like 20 years from now.

sp4cetiger

satiemaniac wrote:

I mean, just for the record, I wasn't making any assumptions, just trying to make my position crystal clear. I really like you, benpaco, and regret coming off as personally hostile, as that truly wasn't my intention. Especially on the Internet, I'm used to people defending pedophilia in various ways, because we are told that these need to be "rational, level-headed discussions." We're taught by Reddit downvotes and Huffington Post thinkpieces that sometimes there's a necessary centrism on what is legally and ethically rape. I've taken similar stances to yours in the past, and I think the best thing we can do for victims in the context of our interpersonal dialogues is to reinforce a strong stance against such acts and to educate others why those stances are necessary.

Can't say I agree with this. Painting a simple black-and-white picture of morality and putting Bowie's act on the same level as, say, Jerry Sandusky's, isn't doing society any favors, IMO. I don't agree with what he did, but all crimes are different and context does matter (both in the legal and ethical sense). Treating others like children that need to be "educated" to think in binary is... well, let's just say there's a reason I'm not Catholic.

meccalecca

Voice of Reason

Gender: Male

Location: The Land of Enchantment

WindowAbove wrote:

And like how you mentioned that people are defending pedophiles in some areas, I think that there will be equal rights movements for adults sexually attracted to children in let's say like 20 years from now.

No. we will not see an equal rights movement for pedos. But I think we'll find new ways of treating the disease. And I think that's the thing. People don't commit these crimes because they're inherently evil. They commit these crimes because there's something completely off in their brain, likely due to problems that occurred in their own childhoods.
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satiemaniac

sp4cetiger wrote:

Can't say I agree with this. Painting a simple black-and-white picture of morality and putting Bowie's act on the same level as, say, Jerry Sandusky's, isn't doing society any favors, IMO. I don't agree with what he did, but all crimes are different and context does matter (both in the legal and ethical sense). Treating others like children that need to be "educated" to think in binary is... well, let's just say there's a reason I'm not Catholic.

I think you're misconstruing what I'm saying. Context for individual cases will always matter, and severity of the crime obviously fluctuates with several factors. My problem is with the baseline being up for debate. I'm sorry, but there's no good reason to live in this make-believe blurred lines world where we arbitrarily label a certain phase as "ephebopilia" as some kind of apologism for a crime. It's the same to me as Republican lawmakers talking about what constitutes "real rape." No amount of contraception education can make a 14-year-old capable of fully understanding the incredibly deep emotional impact of sexual relations, and taking advantage of someone that old as a 24 year old is a crime. Is it the same as being a serial rapist? No. Is it the same as violating young boys you have direct power over, as opposed to someone whose relationship with your power is due to some amount of agency on their part? No. Is it necessary to pussyfoot around about whether it's rape, though? No. Society, as you put it, is done no favors by us wiggling around uncomfortably when these allegations are brought out instead of responding with due diligence. It creates a climate where victims of such crimes are afraid to come out. I understand that Lori Maddox does not consider herself a victim, and I think a lot of that has to do with trauma incurred during formative adolescent years wherein she was involved with at least two sexual predators.

@WindowAbove, you're 16. That's the age of consent in many states in the United States, and I have not done personal research into why, but I assume it's based on some kind of psychological testimony that that's acceptable within certain parameters. I will probably do some personal research before I continue discussing this particular element, but like 14 is two years below that threshold, most likely for good reason. I have never interacted with a 14 year old who was genuinely prepared for a sexual relationship with another human being, particularly one who was 10 years older and in a position of immense power.

meccalecca

Voice of Reason

Gender: Male

Location: The Land of Enchantment

sp4cetiger wrote:

I don't agree with what he did, but all crimes are different and context does matter (both in the legal and ethical sense).

Agreed. It can be extremely difficult to feel empathy for people who commit crimes like this, so we often distance ourselves and treat them as subhuman scum, but in reality, they're usually not all that different than ourselves with some terrible problems of their own leading to these events. It's not an excuse, but it's why criminal justice is such a failed system.
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satiemaniac

meccalecca wrote:

No. we will not see an equal rights movement for pedos. But I think we'll find new ways of treating the disease. And I think that's the thing. People don't commit these crimes because they're inherently evil. They commit these crimes because there's something completely off in their brain, likely due to problems that occurred in their own childhoods.

The only "equal rights" pedophiles need is increased access to mental health facilities. I don't think the cultural climate needs to change to accommodate people who molest and rape children. It should change to favor rehabilitation of criminals more broadly and to be more sympathetic to the mental and cultural factors that produce criminals, without apologizing for or excusing the crimes themselves. At the same time, non-acting pedophiles should be treated with sympathy, and I truly think their condition is sad, and I favor like artificial child pornography, but I also don't think we should excuse their exploitation of children for IRL child pornography, and we shouldn't be centering them in a discussion that includes children who have been sexually exploited. It's the same sort of thing as when we center like the mental trauma of soldiers over the lives they've taken. Both need to be evaluated, but like, check yourself.

meccalecca

Voice of Reason

Gender: Male

Location: The Land of Enchantment

satiemaniac wrote:

No amount of contraception education can make a 14-year-old capable of fully understanding the incredibly deep emotional impact of sexual relations, and taking advantage of someone that old as a 24 year old is a crime.

I agree with this for the most part, but similarly, there are actually many 14 year olds who are more emotionally mature than 24 year olds. Not an excuse, but this is why these issues fall into gray areas. There are so many damaged adults who simply don't have the capacity to reason that this action is not ethical.
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satiemaniac

meccalecca wrote:

I agree with this for the most part, but similarly, there are actually many 14 year olds who are more emotionally mature than 24 year olds. Not an excuse, but this is why these issues fall into gray areas. There are so many damaged adults who simply don't have the capacity to reason that this action is not ethical.

I understand how it can be difficult to evaluate in the moment. Again, my stance here is not to say David Bowie is subhuman scum. It is to be clear in damning this specific action and not coming up with excuses for it happening while holding in tension his own humanity and condition. I truly wish he had been compelled to acknowledge these events and their wrongness so he could begin the process of healing those psychological wounds, but more importantly so that the victim of his sexual predation could begin undoing the trauma that she's so deeply internalized.

When I use the word crime, I mean it in the way I know you would favor it to mean - a deeply unethical violation that should be corrected through some form of reparation, personal growth, attentiveness to the needs of the victim, not the incredibly ineffective and immoral penal system we have erected currently.