Decade charts scoring system

[albummaster]

Most people will know that decade charts are currently being beta tested by a handful of people before going live across the site. I think the mechanism is working fine now, and the final thing to get right is the scoring.

I'm currently playing with a few options, but just like to get some feedback from people before firming this up.

Some things to bear in mind before reading on:

• Decade charts will be followed by 'year' charts (very soon).
  
• There may also be other types of chart in the future.

Scoring system objectives:

• Albums need to be ranked in the same order in each type of chart (e.g. an album shouldn't be ranked higher in a decade chart, but lower in the overall chart than another album from the same decade).
  
• The scoring system needs to be extensible so that it can be easily applied to other types of chart in the future (such as charts by year or genre).

Option 1: Include points from decade charts in the overall rankings.
Logically, a decade chart shouldn't also contribute to the overall rankings as it is only comprised of a subset of albums that could otherwise be selected for an 'overall' list. Additionally, the overall rank would be skewed if there were an uneven proportion of decade charts contributing to the overall rankings (e.g. more 2000s charts than 1950s etc would create a lop-sided overall chart consisting of a disproportionate number of albums from the 2000s).

Option 2: Order decade charts first by 'overall' points, and *then* by 'decade' points.
This achieves consistency (the overall chart would in the same sequence as the decade chart), but it would mean that member decade charts have little impact on the rankings (unless there was a tie on overall score, which would be highly unlikely!)

Option 3: Combine overall and decade points totals only on the decade chart (but not in the overall chart).
This is how things are during beta testing of decade charts. It means that decade charts are contributing to the scoring. However, the overall and decade ranks are not consistent with each other. An album can be ranked *lower* on the overall chart, but *higher* on the decade chart than another album (if an album appears in more decade charts, but less overall charts, than another album).

Option 4?
Is there another option that I'm missing?

Out of the above, I prefer Option 3 - it is simple, and it could be easily applied to other types of chart in the future. However, is there a simple way around the issue with scoring so that the albums could be ranked consistently between the overall and decade chart? Please note the word 'simple'! There are an infinite number of ways this could be done (e.g. using weightings etc). However, I think people need the system needs to be transparent, easily understood, and consistent. Also, the simpler it is. the easier it will be to maintain, and extend in the future.

So, thoughts anyone? I'm leaning towards Option 3, but I don't think it is quite right.

[GARY]

Option 3: Combine overall and decade points totals only on the decade chart (but not in the overall chart).
This is how things are during beta testing of decade charts. It means that decade charts are contributing to the scoring. However, the overall and decade ranks are not consistent with each other. An album can be ranked *lower* on the overall chart, but *higher* on the decade chart than another album (if an album appears in more decade charts, but less overall charts, than another album).
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[joyofdivision]

Option 4: Similar to Option 3 - Decade points totals allocated only on the decade chart (but not in the overall chart) and disable user points from their overall chart for decade and year charts ONLY when the user adds a decade (or year) chart.

I have only noticed this because of the placing for Beach House's 'Teen Dream' in my 2010's chart (number 3, 95 decade and year chart points). It is also in my overall chart (number 84, 17 overall, decade and year points), and should only contribute points towards the site's decade or year chart once. The 84th place for 'Teen Dream' on my overall chart should only contribute to the overall rankings, nothing else now that I have decade lists.

I hope that makes sense and that it isn't too complicated to implement!

[edited top line to make more sense]

[albummaster]

It does make sense (but to be honest, I don't mind charts counting more than one once so long as they are relevant). However, the key thing to my mind is providing a consistent ranking between the overall and decade charts.

Let's take the example of Rumours by Fleetwood Mac and Unknown Pleasures by Joy Division. Rumours is currently ranked *lower* in the 70s chart (12th) than Unknown Pleasures (11th), but *higher* in the overall chart (44th) than Unknown Pleasures (45th).

Unknown Pleasures currently has a better rank in the decade charts than Rumours because it has placed better during the testing of decade charts. I think is the only example so far, but I'm sure it could happen more often if the decade charts were more widely released (and this is why the pilot is restricted to a small number of people).

In a perfect system, you'd expect the same sequence in both charts. I think the prime objective of the scoring system should be to provide a consistent view no matter which attribute you are drilling into.

Maybe this isn't such a big deal, but it seems to me an issue that needs fixing up-front.

[RFNAPLES]

You will never get all BEA members to make sure their overall chart and decade charts show mutual albums in the same order. Some won't take the time, some won't care.

Personally I wouldn't bother ranking decade charts, just let the members make the charts to show others or to please themselves.

If you decide to rank them, keep the systems separate. Remember the influence all the Q charts had on the rankings. Do not allow decade, year, or genre charts to score in the overall chart. Don't worry about incongruity between the overall and decade charts since they are made at different times by different contributors.
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[joyofdivision]

The only way to have consistency between the two charts is to count the user decade charts towards the overall chart. The only exception to this rule should be the current decade, which shouldn't be included until the decade is over!

[purple]

[albummaster]

The original reason for not including decade charts from external sources within the overall rankings was that all charts on BEA were 'overall' charts, so it didn't make sense to mix decade charts amongst this as they are not like for like. The recognised chart thread outlines the criteria for the types of chart that were eligible to be added from external sources.

Personally, I've always liked the idea of all member charts contributing (somehow) to the rankings, everyone's contribution then means something and people have more of an involvement in the site which leads to better interaction. So, as BEA are about to add the ability for members to create decade charts, it led me to think how the scoring should adjusted to take these into account. Anyway, just thinking aloud, so if there is anyone with any ideas to add to the mix, it would be great to hear them.

[revolver94]

This may be a bad idea, but then again, maybe not.

At first I thought that the points from decade charts shouldn't be included, but then I realized one benefit they had- it helps to remove some bias from the overall rankings. There are more than a few charts on this site that are either all old or all modern albums. Including the decade charts in rankings would help to remove that.

Regardless of reason, maybe you could do this: have the decades charts only have up to 10 points be added per chart (for the #1 entry). This would create decimal places, but it allows for their to be a subtle difference created by the decades charts. (For year, it could go up to 1 point, since it is only 1 year).

This wouldn't upset anyone too much as the influence isn't enormous, but it is enough that it could make some interesting changes in the chart.

As for scaling the points differently when looking at the overall chart and the decade charts, I'm against that. The points given to an album should be constant, regardless of which chart you're looking at.

I hope that made sense... haha

[Fergenaprido]

If I understood everything correctly, I think I like option 4 proposed by joyofdivision best. I personally don't see a problem if an album is ranked higher than another in the overall BEA chart, but lower in the decade BEA chart: It could be that one album is better in general, while the second more strongly typifies that particular decade, and so would show more prominently on individual charts devoted to that decade. I see the same thing occurring if/when year and genre charts are introduced.

In my mind, ideally, each chart type should be a subset of another chart type (i.e. year of decade, decade of overall, genre of overall, etc.). A user's overall chart ranking would affect the score for an album on the overall BEA chart as well as all applicable BEA subcharts, unless that user has also created that specific subchart. I think this is what joyofdivision proposed, but I'm not sure.

I also agree with RFNaples; decade and other subchart rankings should have no bearing on the overall BEA chart.

The only cause for potential chaos with joy's proposal that I see would be what to do with albums that make a user's overall chart, but fail to make that user's decade chart. I.e. I rank Rumours #84/100 on my overall chart, but I don't put it on my 70s chart because perhaps it is #11 and I only create a top ten. Should my overall ranking for Rumours still count for the decade BEA chart even if it is not on my own decade chart?

Am I still making sense?

Note: I've tried to use "BEA chart" for the compiled charts on the site, in order to distinguish them from a user's individual chart. I've been getting muddled seeing the word "chart" so many times in this thread I was beginning to get confused.