How offensive do you want your music? - Music

Happymeal

Skinny wrote:

Going back to an earlier thread, I really hate all this "music should be colourblind" crap. Some musics are black musics, some are white musics, and these differences should be acknowledged and lauded, so long as we don't start excluding people on the basis of their race.

Actually, I do possess a comment about this particular idea. I'm not quite sure if I'm in agreement or disagreement with the particular attitude, but we do have to remember that race is a very broad system. I'm not necessarily saying one can't use it to portray context, but by solely adding the race, it can become a highly inaccurate portrayal. For me, it's not so much the race of the person that adds the meaning, but the reason why the person (or people in most cases of music) created said music that adds more meaning. Saying "a white guy made rock" for ex. isn't all of a sudden going to give you new context to a Beatles' song, but stating why said person did might. So, I'd assume that means I'm on the "music should be colorblind" side of the argument, but it's not pertinent whether I am or not. I do think certain types of music should be and are considered synonymous with certain races, but what that race is, is highly irrelevant to the understanding of the music (in comparison to the context that the music was created in)

Skinny

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Happymeal wrote:

Actually, I do possess a comment about this particular idea. I'm not quite sure if I'm in agreement or disagreement with the particular attitude, but we do have to remember that race is a very broad system. I'm not necessarily saying one can't use it to portray context, but by solely adding the race, it can become a highly inaccurate portrayal. For me, it's not so much the race of the person that adds the meaning, but the reason why the person (or people in most cases of music) created said music that adds more meaning. Saying "a white guy made rock" for ex. isn't all of a sudden going to give you new context to a Beatles' song, but stating why said person did might. So, I'd assume that means I'm on the "music should be colorblind" side of the argument, but it's not pertinent whether I am or not. I do think certain types of music should be and are considered synonymous with certain races, but what that race is, is highly irrelevant to the understanding of the music (in comparison to the context that the music was created in)

I largely agree with the first part of this, although in many cases surely the artist's race is inherent to "the context that the music was created in", no? But whatever, I wasn't trying to say that race was or is the defining factor in any genre, just that in some genres it is certainly one of them and shouldn't be brushed under the rug. I also completely disagree with the idea that what an artist's race is, particularly in genres where race is (or at least can be) a central theme, is irrelevant to the understanding of the music, although I understand the point you are trying to make (i.e. you, as in Happymeal, might argue that Public Enemy made the music they did because of the social environment in which they lived, which isn't necessarily defined by the colour of somebody's skin, and therefore their work shouldn't be held up as an example of "black music" but rather as a form of protest music (or whatever it is you'd call it) made by people who were angry due to social factors that could ostensibly affect people of any race, though I'd argue that in cases such as this one that the two are so intertwined as to be practically synonymous, hence I can't agree with your last sentence given that it's impossible to understand Public Enemy's music without having some understanding of racial politics and tensions within America; similarly, I'd argue that the race of the originators of Detroit techno was inherent to the social context in which they created their music, meaning I simply can't abide this idea of race as an irrelevance).

But whatever, I feel like I'm going round in circles here. To summarise: I think race is often, though not always, a major/defining factor in an artist's work, and often a major/defining factor in the birth and continued evolution of entire genres, and this should not be ignored or played down.
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Happymeal

Skinny wrote:

But whatever, I feel like I'm going round in circles here. To summarise: I think race is often, though not always, a major factor in an artist's work, and often a major factor in the birth and continued evolution of entire genres, and this should not be ignored or played down.

I'll preface this by correcting my last sentence with reason over race (instead of context because, yes, race is a portion of the context. I phrased that incorrectly). I'm in agreement with the idea "that the two are so intertwined as to be practically synonymous", but the race would be synonymous with any situation given. A red race and blue race for example that produced the same results would be looked upon as the same. I already made this point (though I do think I didn't make it clear enough) and you understood it as such so I'm not sure if I should be posting this particular statement, but I do think it's important to know I don't mean to say that race isn't important as it's a driving factor in so many events that you should never overlook it.

I do think that this is very circular logic however so I don't think that this particular discussion will go anywhere. I don't think music should be considered colorblind, but being colorblind might just be an intrinsic value of any idea. I think an easy comparison would be mathematics. Regardless of how we communicate it, the particular event (or thing in this case) still does what it's supposed to do. In the same vein, race is still synonymous with any event that encompasses race that much, but solely because we communicate it as such.

Graeme2

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Location: The Upside Down

Some good posts well put. Some nice points of view from skinny and I agree with some of it and not with others. Sorry to be pedantic but still have to insist on never ever saying that techno is a non black non American genre. Not at any point. I explicitly do not agree with that statement and do not want my name against it. Quoting me saying it came into existence from non black non American input is not the same. Never meant it to mean the same. Maybe like Parrish I'm not so good at explaining things. For the record I don't think it's an either black or white genre. My points were always about the foundations and the influences then. Yeah it's stupid saying the influences were 100 per cent white etc. obviously. Was just looking at it from when Alleys Of Your Mind came out, what the explicit influences were on that and the tracks at that time ,what they sounded like and it really just being a continuation of electronic music. Anyways as the music became more well, techno, the influences were just as much black as white. And all of this is just to highlight why I think, in my opinion, tha calling techno music a black music absurd and also therefore the Parrish comments. No more controversial posts from me for a while Very Happy

Skinny

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Happymeal wrote:

I don't think music should be considered colorblind, but being colorblind might just be an intrinsic value of any idea. I think an easy comparison would be mathematics. Regardless of how we communicate it, the particular event (or thing in this case) still does what it's supposed to do. In the same vein, race is still synonymous with any event that encompasses race that much, but solely because we communicate it as such.

Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

Happymeal wrote:

I don't think that this particular discussion will go anywhere.

Agreed. Let's quit now.
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Muslim-Bigfoot

Gender: Male

Age: 34

Location: Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

Happymeal wrote:

A red race and blue race for example that produced the same results would be looked upon as the same. I already made this point (though I do think I didn't make it clear enough) and you understood it as such so I'm not sure if I should be posting this particular statement, but I do think it's important to know I don't mean to say that race isn't important as it's a driving factor in so many events that you should never overlook it.

I know you wanna give it a rest but I have a point I wanna make. I think any kind of anthropologically, historically and socially aware perspective would see the bolded part as impossible by definition. Also this point is made more evident by this simple observation that no two human products are the same and any similarity should be accounted for by socio-historical analysis. I think what we call race (or in this case black or white music) is actually an amalgam of concepts and situations mingled into one. I mean obviously you wouldn't include an indie rock band comprised of young African-Americans from upper east side Manhattan into your idea of black music so there are many other class, social status and geographical conditions (and god knows what else) to the simple racial denominations, conditions which are not essentially included in it. What helps you and me to speak of black music I think is the relative distinctness and homogeneity of African-american populations in United States. Only with taking this contingent homogeneity and also rather more importantly socio-historical ancestry of the ideas involved in a brand of music (which in a quite contradictory way can bypass the mentioned homogeneity and constraints of social status in a way that is possible in any powerful tradition) into account is that we can understand what can play the role of a separator line between, in this case, black music and white music; in the end we know that although this separation is there, however maybe as more of a vanishing border in the case of techno, but is there not because of race essentially but things that customarily have come hand in hand with this or that distinct racial group; in the end one might ask what is race but things that customarily come hand in hand with it? Well it seems to be essentially something more than that in minds of people, but it would be better if it was not. It's true that in this case color of skin can play a definite role but in general it isn't helpful and its dominant role and it being a rather handy tool (for people that mind) in roughly distinguishing certain groups (African, Asian, Indian, Jewish, Middle-eastern) is mainly deceiving albeit still remaining a forceful element in grouping people in our uncivilized minds.
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