I think that's a very intentionally ungenerous reading of what I wrote, but that's kinda your schtick. You can weep about the agency that's stolen from women by me having preferences, or you could actually engage with my point. All I meant to articulate is that there are a great many genres that people enjoy that women do not pursue as readily, and the fanbases of these genres should be judged on their reception of women who do pursue such fields instead of the quantity of female artists they enjoy writ large. To put it another way, I think it's very weird territory we enter when we should be adapting our stylistic interests to have Top 100 charts on BEA that have 50 albums made by female-led acts. I'll be fair and say I didn't explicitly say this is what I was talking about because the last thread with bcmandude telling us we were all misogynists for not having enough women in our Top 100 charts was fresh in my mind. In every major genre I enjoy, there are many women who participate whose contributions I enjoy greatly. I think women should excel in whatever they wish to. I'm not sure how it's patriarchal oppression for me to not enjoy singer/songwriter music made by men or by women. I also don't understand how it's patriarchal oppression to actively try to encourage women to pursue sectors of the arts that have been more exclusive towards them in the past, so long as we aren't looking down our nose at them for choosing to pursue some other genre of music. I'm not trying to be the ultimate arbiter of taste - just the sole arbiter of my own. It's an unfair bait and switch to make me out to be trying to police the actions of all women who ever make music just because I'm expressing preferences and trying to not be told I'm individually corrupted because society doesn't encourage women to make the kinds of music I enjoy.
EDIT: I'm re-reading the section of my post that was quoted and can agree that my wording left a little bit too much to the imagination. I shouldn't have phrased it as being men's job to drag women kicking and screaming into different genres. All I was trying to say is that genre scenes controlled by male curators and writers (most all of them) should be more active in upholding women in those scenes so that women who have an interest in those scenes but might be dissuaded by lack of female representation feel more empowered to pursue them. Of course, as power is transferred to as well as more often taken by women, men have less of a role in doing this kind of work. All this work should be done under the leadership and desires of women. But the people with power can't just sit idly by and have everyone just agency their way out of things, which is an approach I see a lot of postmodernists take to these kinds of problems. You can have synergy with the dominant oppressing group if they are aware of their power and redirect it. That's all I was hoping to point out.
Last edited by Satie on 02/19/2016 03:58; edited 1 time in total
I dunno, I think there's more than enough room for us to love both kinds of female musicians. What Pentagonal has been talking about is one of the cornerstones of poptimism when you think about it, and it's important to realize that female artists shouldn't be marginalized just because the music they make isn't "serious". On the other hand, though, having the impression that women can only make music that is inherently "feminine" is equally sexist, and is also missing out on a lot of great music. We don't need to choose whether to like Eliane Radigue and Big Freedia and Jewel. They're all amazing women, and should all be respected for the unique kinds of music they make.
i am not saying to marginalize women for making certain kinds of music holy god this isn't a zero sum game and the implication that i claimed it was or that it just is because reasons is absurd
i am not saying to marginalize women for making certain kinds of music holy god this isn't a zero sum game and the implication that i claimed it was or that it just is because reasons is absurd
I agree. You did nothing wrong, Satie. I was just reminding Pentagonal that only talking about women making singer-songwriter and pop music is leaving out so much stuff that you love.
(And it's also important to note that the same social factors that allow artists like Adele to be high on the charts here are also what get fucking Oasis and Kings of Leon even higher, so let's not pretend that we're suddenly more progressive than RYM).
EDIT: I'm re-reading the section of my post that was quoted and can agree that my wording left a little bit too much to the imagination. I shouldn't have phrased it as being men's job to drag women kicking and screaming into different genres. All I was trying to say is that genre scenes controlled by male curators and writers (most all of them) should be more active in upholding women in those scenes so that women who have an interest in those scenes but might be dissuaded by lack of female representation feel more empowered to pursue them. Of course, as power is transferred to as well as more often taken by women, men have less of a role in doing this kind of work. All this work should be done under the leadership and desires of women. But the people with power can't just sit idly by and have everyone just agency their way out of things, which is an approach I see a lot of postmodernists take to these kinds of problems. You can have synergy with the dominant oppressing group if they are aware of their power and redirect it. That's all I was hoping to point out.
Was going to give a cheeky response, but I think this clarification puts us in much closer agreement. There's obviously a lot of room for debate in how we should balance allowing agency vs. encouraging activism, but I think that's easier to address with specific examples in hand.
Really enjoying these threads, btw, I wish I had more time to contribute to them.
Was going to give a cheeky response, but I think this clarification puts us in much closer agreement. There's obviously a lot of room for debate in how we should balance allowing agency vs. encouraging activism, but I think that's easier to address with specific examples in hand.
In dance music, a historically male-centered genre (though granted, one that has oscillated closer to equal footing between the sexes than many other genres and has had its own history of broad acceptance of people in its social spaces, if not in its creator positions necessarily), there is a growing amount of female DJs making very daring and expressive work. To name a few I've listened to a decent amount lately, Elysia Crampton, Mhysa, and DJ Haram are all putting out awesome material. They all actively promote themselves and get good reception. I don't think that I'm doing them some big favor by saying "You go, girl!" to them. But when someone like Adam Harper, who has some sway in certain niches of leftfield electronic music, supports them aggressively and actively, I think that that's the best active role that he can take as a man to help combat sexism in his corner of the music world. I think that in the long run, institutional validation is one part of the puzzle, and denying that in favor of complete fabrications that female agency and female agency alone turns the tables and re-writes history is just not really beholden to reality. Of course, it's important to not understate the role of people like DJ Haram herself in putting together her own polemics against men in the dance music scene and in female artists' networks of support of one another. These are ultimately more useful than the institutional responses created by people like Harper in my personal view. But they aren't the only thing, and if we're talking about breaking barriers in music instead of just moralizing about how men should consume, I think that's an example of "good allyship" to use the trendy vernacular of the day.
Again, I apologize if I came off as trying to say that women who pursue genres that are historically more accessible to them is somehow wrong, selling out, or unimportant. I'm just saying that if we're talking about what music listeners can do to change female representation, I think it's more reasonable and useful to have them hype women in genres they enjoy than to change their genre preferences to fit their politics, which is the implicit request of people who complain that Adele or someone isn't higher on the charts or attacks Pitchfork for not reviewing Taylor Swift.
This is about African-American representations in film and is only somewhat related to the topic at hand, but this argument reminds me of a good Adolph Reed piece about the dangers of leaning heavily on agency-based models to affect political change. I concede obviously that representation in the arts is slightly different than material equality in wider society, but a lot of the tactics and outcomes can be roughly equated. I'd invite you to read it if you haven't to maybe better understand where I'm coming from when I'm skeptical that agency is all we should be discussing.
Again, I apologize if I came off as trying to say that women who pursue genres that are historically more accessible to them is somehow wrong, selling out, or unimportant.
Even if you were saying that, I don't think you'd need to apologize, to be honest. It's hard to exchange ideas if we're always worried about offending with them. Perhaps my response was a bit pointed and sounded like I was angry, but you seem like someone who would prefer directness to the passive aggressive approach.
I'll mull over what you've written and check out the article, it will give me something interesting to do while I'm driving to the airport at 3 AM (don't ask). I didn't know there was such a thing as "agency-based models" for political change, so that should be interesting.
I had this internal dilemma with the latest Grimes album. My instinct was that it was "too girly". That was the term my brain was generating as I got a few songs into the album and it really gave me pause. I felt like that was kinda the point of the album, it was a confident assertion of femininity, and my mind recoiled at it. On the other hand, maybe my instincts are fine and it's Grimes who was misguided in her execution as such. It was just too sickly cyrupy sweet for my ears and that's down to her production which was a departure from her masterpiece Visions.
Then again I really like Danny Brown's XXX which my brain interprets as almost a parody of masculinity, whilst also being a racial affirmation. I also highly doubt it could've possibly been made outside the rap/hip-hop genre, and also that it could've been made by a white man. My instinctual response would've been very different. Food for thought indeed.
RockyRaccoonIs it solipsistic in here or is it just me?ModeratorProfile Maryland
In dance music, a historically male-centered genre (though granted, one that has oscillated closer to equal footing between the sexes than many other genres and has had its own history of broad acceptance of people in its social spaces, if not in its creator positions necessarily), there is a growing amount of female DJs making very daring and expressive work. To name a few I've listened to a decent amount lately, Elysia Crampton, Mhysa, and DJ Haram are all putting out awesome material. They all actively promote themselves and get good reception. I don't think that I'm doing them some big favor by saying "You go, girl!" to them. But when someone like Adam Harper, who has some sway in certain niches of leftfield electronic music, supports them aggressively and actively, I think that that's the best active role that he can take as a man to help combat sexism in his corner of the music world. I think that in the long run, institutional validation is one part of the puzzle, and denying that in favor of complete fabrications that female agency and female agency alone turns the tables and re-writes history is just not really beholden to reality.
Okay, after reading your article and the above, I think I see how you interpreted my position and I believe I'm saying (or at least thinking) something slightly different. I want to be clear that I do think men can be active in breaking down barriers to women and I do think that social change is something that happens through the agency of more than just the disadvantaged group. To illustrate that point more vividly, here's an alternate fictional exchange to what I presented earlier:
[woman sings a song]
LABEL EXEC: That might be difficult to market. Maybe you should try something more along the lines of pop or singer-songwriter.
WOMAN: But this is the music I love!
MALE ARTIST: I say go for it anyway. You should feel free to express yourself in whichever way you want. I'll help promote it.
I think the above is a great way for men to promote change in how society views female musicians, and if this is what you were trying to express, then I completely agree. To me, the key difference between this and the previous situation is that the man (or society) isn't dictating what type of music the woman should make. She still does that herself, but the man can still help to break down any barriers she might face.
The main reason I think this distinction is important is that, as I'm sure you know, human societies are very complex things. Even though it might be tempting to look at gender ratios in various genres and declare them deficient, I don't believe that equal gender participation in everything is necessarily ideal. Metal was discussed as an example of a genre that's very male dominated, but in my experience, that's probably because very few women even like metal. I still support breaking down barriers for female metal musicians, if possible, but I don't think we're ever going to know when we've reached an ideal gender ratio, or if that's even a meaningful thing. Whether this male preference for metal is due to something in the socialization process or (*gasp*) intrinsic differences between the sexes, I think that the type of music a person chooses to make is part of how they express themselves. If I can be said to have an ideal, it's that men and women can feel encouraged to make whatever kind of music they want, regardless of whether it satisfies the expectations of others. And that includes the expectations of progressives.
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